Crown amp?

[Firefly00]

$10k and All that glitz but only 100 watts? OUCH

Yeah, but it has vu metres! Everyone knows those cost $4000 each!

 

[Chrispy]

Yes, but the XLS amps are Class D, right? The XLI series is Class AB, and consequently heavy and warm in comparison.

Rick "agreeing" Denney

Yes the current XLS are class D, but not the previous XLS. XLI seem to still be AB.

 

[Chrispy]

I have had some experience with Crowns over the last decade or so. Several friends and their gear:

My friend (RIP) had a pair of Macrotech 5000VZ and 3600VZ, Comtech 1600/400.

The 5000 have fans that run hard at start-up, and slow down to a modest breath. It's not really noticeable during use, and they are very clean and balanced sounding amps. Beware the lights dimming and the draw when used on 120V.

The 3600, however, have LOUD fans run from a fan-former. My friend had them modded to run very quietly. These have a bit of a midbass emphasis, but it's not something that sounds awful. I prefer the 5000 in terms of clean output. He preferred the slam of the 3600.

The Comtech models were fanned on low, but have bass damping that seemed to lack control. They sounded loose by comparison to the two MT pairs.

Another friend had the MacroReference, and it was great when it worked. It died about 5 years ago now. BTW- some parts for these and the 5000 are basically NLA.

I have another friend with an original XLS402. Since he used it in home, he disconnected the fan. I know of another that did a DC-fan replacement and a wall-wart supply (jinjuku). These really were no-frills ballsy amps that did anything I ever asked of them. I never heard them stock.

I have 4x of the XLS Drivecore (silver) models, none of the XLS2 (black). I have a pair of 1500 for L/R front and L/R surround. I have a 2000 that I've used repeatedly for InDIYana speaker event shows, and yet a 1000 that I bought cheaply. The S/N of the 1000 is it's downfall for full bandwidth signals. The 2000 is a beast. The 1500 pair bridged mono for L/R is pretty awesome. The fans on these do run periodically whether making much heat or not, maybe 10 second intervals, but they are really quiet and basically unnoticeable. I run them with the limiters OFF from my Anthem AVM-30, and I could not be happier.

The XLS1000/1002 do have that lower SNR rating compared to the rest of the amps in these series, good to be aware of.

 

[JonfromCB]

"What is audible" may be a subject some choose to avoid, that does not make it BS. It should be, from an objective viewpoint a rather important consideration unless you simply enjoy throwing money around.

Like I said spec's are measurable and how much money I, you, or anybody else has or how they choose to spend it really isn't an arguable point. Honestly that's just more BS

 

[kipman725]

Probably there is too much generalization about 'crown amps' as there are multiple basic designs making up the various models. The current Macrotech for example has nothing to do with the old Macrotech MA5002VZ in design. Furthermore ASIK at least some of the design team was sacked some time ago and started LEA. I started a forum thread with some info on PA amps fan noise: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pa-systems/339848-quiet-pa-amps.html

Amplifier output noise voltage (given indirectly by SNR) is very important for high efficiency speakers in quiet environments, the hiss can get surprisingly loud when you directly connect compression drivers.

 

[Spkrdctr]

As mentioned by a few of you, I am talking about newer Crown amps with the better THD+N numbers. I see more of the amp users have posted and are having great results! Currently they have the XLI and XLS series of amps with common RCA connections. Pricing is fantastic and the 6 year warranty is a very good length of time.

 

[JonfromCB]

Probably there is too much generalization about 'crown amps' as there are multiple basic designs making up the various models. The current Macrotech for example has nothing to do with the old Macrotech MA5002VZ in design. Furthermore ASIK at least some of the design team was sacked some time ago and started LEA. I started a forum thread with some info on PA amps fan noise: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pa-systems/339848-quiet-pa-amps.html

Amplifier output noise voltage (given indirectly by SNR) is very important for high efficiency speakers in quiet environments, the hiss can get surprisingly loud when you directly connect compression drivers.

Excellent point on "generalization". An amp that one guy loves in his system, based on source material, specific speakers, room, noise levels, and preferred volume might outright not be acceptable for the next guy in his system.

Hiss/buzz/audible noise certainly isn't unique to any amp because of the badge (manufacturer). Noise caused by amps can be especially bad not only with efficient compression drivers but also RAALs, Heil AMTs, and (generally) higher efficiency speakers (which are the most practical choice as the size of venue or HT increases). Speaker noise from amps is a perfect example of how having and understanding all of an amplifier's bench spec's (as well as the connected speaker characteristics) will allow avoidance of such. There is much more to an amps performance than WPC and distortion levels.

 

[David Harper]

I'm just guessing now but I suspect 99% of people wouldn't hear any difference in sq between a crown amp and any "high end"
audiophile amp. I know I wouldn't. Amp sound quality, in my opinion, is vastly overrated. I believe that competently designed amplifiers,
operated within their specified parameters, sound the same.

 

[Chrispy]

As mentioned by a few of you, I am talking about newer Crown amps with the better THD+N numbers. I see more of the amp users have posted and are having great results! Currently they have the XLI and XLS series of amps with common RCA connections. Pricing is fantastic and the 6 year warranty is a very good length of time.

My XLS amps came with three year warranties, have they expanded?

 

[Jdunk54nl]

My XLS amps came with three year warranties, have they expanded?

Yup, Since January 1, 2020 until 12/31/2021

Warranty | Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers | English (US)

www.crownaudio.com

 

[Chrispy]

Yup, Since January 1, 2020 until 12/31/2021

Warranty | Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers | English (US)

www.crownaudio.com

Interesting, thanks. I'm beyond even 6 yrs with most of mine in any case.

 

[dlaloum]

I'm just guessing now but I suspect 99% of people wouldn't hear any difference in sq between a crown amp and any "high end"
audiophile amp. I know I wouldn't. Amp sound quality, in my opinion, is vastly overrated. I believe that competently designed amplifiers,
operated within their specified parameters, sound the same.

Amps, mostly, are reactive beasts, and they will react to the loads placed on them....

The effect of those reactions differ based on each amps design and limitations.

Hence - amps sound different.

The perfect "wire with gain" amp can be approximated - but only within strict constraints. Ridiculously over-engineered devices, can expand those constraints....to some degree...

I have noted differences between my amps, driving my speakers.... however I cannot guarantee that these are not due to minor input level variations, or other factors (including confirmation bias) - The sheer power of the Crowns and their ability to drive difficult loads (read high current output, low impedance speakers, etc...) makes them a great option (and they are economical) - my more expensive (and much older) , Quad 606 "audiophile" amp, is more power constrained - but IMO sounds better, smoother, more refined, in the mids and highs. The difference is however, marginal.

 

[Spkrdctr]

My XLS amps came with three year warranties, have they expanded?

Yes, they offered it for all of 2021. Jan 1st of 2022 it might go back to a shorter warranty. I think because of covid they were also trying to get people to buy right now in 2021 to stay in business. Luckily they weathered the storm and seem to be doing fine.

 

[Wolf]

I have had some experience with Crowns over the last decade or so. Several friends and their gear:

My friend (RIP) had a pair of Macrotech 5000VZ and 3600VZ, Comtech 1600/400.

The 5000 have fans that run hard at start-up, and slow down to a modest breath. It's not really noticeable during use, and they are very clean and balanced sounding amps. Beware the lights dimming and the draw when used on 120V.

The 3600, however, have LOUD fans run from a fan-former. My friend had them modded to run very quietly. These have a bit of a midbass emphasis, but it's not something that sounds awful. I prefer the 5000 in terms of clean output. He preferred the slam of the 3600.

The Comtech models were fanned on low, but have bass damping that seemed to lack control. They sounded loose by comparison to the two MT pairs.

Another friend had the MacroReference, and it was great when it worked. It died about 5 years ago now. BTW- some parts for these and the 5000 are basically NLA.

I have another friend with an original XLS402. Since he used it in home, he disconnected the fan. I know of another that did a DC-fan replacement and a wall-wart supply (jinjuku). These really were no-frills ballsy amps that did anything I ever asked of them. I never heard them stock.

I have 4x of the XLS Drivecore (silver) models, none of the XLS2 (black). I have a pair of 1500 for L/R front and L/R surround. I have a 2000 that I've used repeatedly for InDIYana speaker event shows, and yet a 1000 that I bought cheaply. The S/N of the 1000 is it's downfall for full bandwidth signals. The 2000 is a beast. The 1500 pair bridged mono for L/R is pretty awesome. The fans on these do run periodically whether making much heat or not, maybe 10 second intervals, but they are really quiet and basically unnoticeable. I run them with the limiters OFF from my Anthem AVM-30, and I could not be happier.

Addendum: Found some photos of the racks, and they were 2400VZ, not the 3600VZ. Stickers may say 5002 and 2402 on the amps as he bought refurbs to clean up the look, and the old model number stickers were NLA.

Yes- that is a Back to the Future Plutonium fuel case rack that he was able to procure. He bought stickers to finish the look as well. He was so proud of that one.

 

[Absolute]

Here's a measurement showing the hiss from a Crown 4/1200 cdi on my compression driver compared to my ambient room noise. Absolute levels not calibrated.

Edit; I found the source of my measurement. This was about 1-2 cm away from my driver, which was the JBL D2430k (M2 driver) with a 5 dB downpadding, making the sensitivity around 105 dB around 3 kHz.

 

[Isotonic]

Just sold my Crown XLS1502. Sounded fine in the garage, but seriously lacking at the gig. Mids were lacking. Overall sound like plastic. Started to be effected by the ASR nonsense and thought that all amps sound the same. Sold it and replaced with with an older QSC class H amp. Sounds much better. Band mates, who have no interest in audio or opinions about power amps noticed the difference right away. The consensus was that the mids lacked slam.

 

[Velocipede_Acoustics]

Just sold my Crown XLS1502. Sounded fine in the garage, but seriously lacking at the gig. Mids were lacking. Overall sound like plastic. Started to be effected by the ASR nonsense and thought that all amps sound the same. Sold it and replaced with with an older QSC class H amp. Sounds much better. Band mates, who have no interest in audio or opinions about power amps noticed the difference right away. The consensus was that the mids lacked slam.

Okay... What ever floats your boat. However, your problems with how your setup sounds are likely 100% environmental, setup, acoustics and more, and would have nothing to do with the amp. This 'ASR nonsense' is not nonsense, but your blaming the effect it has on you is nonsense. That and conflating objective data with the opinion that 'all amps sound the same' is also nonsense.

 

[JRS]

Okay... What ever floats your boat. However, your problems with how your setup sounds are likely 100% environmental, setup, acoustics and more, and would have nothing to do with the amp. This 'ASR nonsense' is not nonsense, but your blaming the effect it has on you is nonsense. That and conflating objective data with the opinion that 'all amps sound the same' is also nonsense.

Of all things to blame for poor SQ, amps are nowhere close to the top of the list, assuming adequate power was available, and this amp specs at 300 into 8 both channels driven along with a ruler flat FR. Likewise for the QSC. Don't doubt the readers perception, but doubt the cause.

Likely EQ settings in the amp. The XLS series has considerable DSP power and if taken from storage for the first time, improper setup would be my best guess. But rather than check the facts, lets blame ASR for the misconception that all amps sound the same.

 

[mhardy6647]

Now... I've heard of bass slam... but midrange slam... that's a new one on me.
I am guessing that an Altec Voice of the Theater, e.g., the Altec A5-500, has midrange slam... but I am not sure.
Pretty sure Gary Kaufman's A5s with 1505 multicell horns on top would have midrange slam, were midrange to slam-enabled, of course.

I've also heard of punchy bass -- but I'd really prefer not to be physically abused by my hifi componentry.
I'm just a chicken pacifist, I guess.

Likely EQ settings in the amp. The XLS series has considerable DSP power and if taken from storage for the first time, improper setup would be my best guess. But rather than check the facts, lets blame ASR for the misconception that all amps sound the same.

Traditionally, folks'd throw Stereo Review's redoubtable reviewer, the late Julian Hirsch, under the bus first, vis-a-vis the all amps sound the same bromide.

source: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archi...iFI-Stereo/70s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1975-05.pdf

PS I think that Julian was rockin' a lab coat some years before Matthew Polk.

 

[Sal1950]

Overall sound like plastic.

What does "plastic" sound like?

Started to be effected by the ASR nonsense and thought that all amps sound the same.

Neither ASR or any other engineer/guru in his right mind ever said "all amps sound the same".
There's about a million if, and, and buts residing behind the answer to the question "do all amps sound the same".
The very short answer to that is, They Should. And that's been true for many decades now.

The consensus was that the mids lacked slam.

I'm sure that's what they heard.
Right after you shared your impressions with them.