Crown 4|300N Amplifier Review

[Deleted member 48726]

If there are two fans you can wire them in series to get half the revolutions and minimize the noise.

You can also replace them with silent PC cooling fans if the voltage is 12 V.

Or look for an amp which only start the fans at a certain temperature.. Chances are you newer or very rarely see them spin and if you do you play so loud you don't notice it anyway. Yamaha PxxxS models are this way and many others I'm sure.

 

[charlielaub]

You CAN make those fan modifications, but this can also change (e.g reduce) the cooling performance. When you run a fan at lower speed the airflow will be reduced. "Silent" cooling fans often run at lower speeds and have lower airflow and static pressure specs. The pressure that the fan can deliver is important because the fan is operating in a relatively constricted space inside a chassis and not in free air. An electronics chassis is much tighter inside that the average desktop or tower PC case.

 

[Spkrdctr]

What numbers are we using these days? I lost track. 80db SN or 115dB SN or 120dB SN? It's been sort of changing in the general consensus.

I say 80. But if you really want you can bump it to 90.

 

[Spkrdctr]

No. I just listen in on my headphones at present and concentrate on those. I expect pretty clean sound with my present gear.

Ack! Headphones. The devils equipment, go back to speakers. Save yourself!

 

[Deleted member 48726]

You CAN make those fan modifications, but this can also change (e.g reduce) the cooling performance. When you run a fan at lower speed the airflow will be reduced. "Silent" cooling fans often run at lower speeds and have lower airflow and static pressure specs. The pressure that the fan can deliver is important because the fan is operating in a relatively constricted space inside a chassis and not in free air. An electronics chassis is much tighter inside that the average desktop or tower PC case.

Yeah, but when used residential the amp won't be stressed too much. Besides you keep airflow albeit lower than before, you still have function of ramp up when temperature is rising and pro amps also have temp. shut down.
Absolutely of no concern in your living room.

 

[Bartl007]

I’d put £100 on not hearing a difference between this amp and using a hypex amp from, say Nord. The numbers might be different but say on height and surround speakers you won’t hear a difference. I have Hypex & Crown in a Trinnov set up. No difference. However Hypex don’t have fans closer match on gain for trinnov less lights.

Lots of people take these reviews too seriously. In the real world they are mostly pretty similar. Same with DAC’s.

BOOM !

I would argue that the crown amps are actually a better match for any AVR (including the trinnov) because they have what most consumer amps lack…input voltage attenuation knobs!


You can optimize the gain structure of your system and maximize signal to noise without running into distortion/clipping.


Hard to do this with typical consumer amps where the input voltage is set in stone.


Regarding sound quality, I don't think anyone could tell a difference in a blind A/B test. I believe the Hahn theater used the rebadged synthesis version of these amps and that room cost $3M+. Good enough for them, good enough for me!


The fans on these amps are audible and I would recommend locating them in a separate room if possible. I've lived with them in a domestic setting 11ft from the listening position and even at idle, they can be heard/distracting especially in quiet passages in movies. I much prefer them in my new room with a separate AV Rack room to keep the heat, light, noise out of the listening room.

 

[dlaloum]

I will reiterate - with my 2 XLS2500 power amps, the fans on these have never been audible. (I cannot speak for other Crown models)

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I will reiterate - with my 2 XLS2500 power amps, the fans on these have never been audible. (I cannot speak for other Crown models)

I believe it has one modulating fan and it sits in the back. This is better than front fan(s) IR to noise.

I would argue that the crown amps are actually a better match for any AVR (including the trinnov) because they have what most consumer amps lack…input voltage attenuation knobs!


You can optimize the gain structure of your system and maximize signal to noise without running into distortion/clipping.


Hard to do this with typical consumer amps where the input voltage is set in stone.


Regarding sound quality, I don't think anyone could tell a difference in a blind A/B test. I believe the Hahn theater used the rebadged synthesis version of these amps and that room cost $3M+. Good enough for them, good enough for me!


The fans on these amps are audible and I would recommend locating them in a separate room if possible. I've lived with them in a domestic setting 11ft from the listening position and even at idle, they can be heard/distracting especially in quiet passages in movies. I much prefer them in my new room with a separate AV Rack room to keep the heat, light, noise out of the listening room.

Pro amps are in general technically superior to consumer amps.

• Built to last,
• more power,
• active cooling,
• clipping and signal lights,
• attenuation,
• some have input voltage selectors, HP/LP filters,
• more versatility in connections

 

[charlielaub]

On a related note (regarding fan noise in these and similar Crown amps), I just did a fan replacement on a Crown DCi 2|1250 that I bought used on Ebay. The stock fans (one cooling the PS and the other cooling the amp module) had developed some noise and whine over time (amp was dated 2016). I replaced these with different 24Vdc that have a much lower noise (16.7dBA), but the tradeoff I accepted was lower max CFM and static pressure capability. With my head 3 feet away I can barely hear a thing from the new fans in a quiet room.

There are a couple of different companies that supply fans for this application, and there seems to be a couple of different models that trade off fan speed and noise vs CFM and static pressure. For example, from CUI (Digikey) you can get the following:
MODEL -- CFM -- static pressure in inch H2O -- NOISE dBA
CFM-6025V-231-167 -- 16.0 -- 0.10 -- 16.7
CFM-6025V-238-220 -- 19.3 -- 0.15 -- 22.0
CFM-6025V-245-270 -- 23.5 -- 0.21 -- 27.0
CFM-6025V-252-312 -- 27.0 -- 0.31 -- 31.2

The stock fan is produced by Jamicon, and has the following specs:
JF060-2H -- 15.56 -- 0.196 -- 29.4

Even if/when new the stock fan is much noisier but provides higher static pressure. This would ensure good airflow even when packed into a rack with other equipment, etc.

I decided that if I provide good access to cool room air and do not expect to push the amp because I will not be using it to play low crest factor music at max output, I the lower noise fans should be sufficient. But it is nice to see that you can select a level of performance that falls in between these extremes if you would like.

 

[Archaea]

@amirm

Is it your opinion that Crown X|N Drivecore amps will hold true to their full individual channel power ratings if supplied 240v power, and to all channels when all channels driven?

I was just watching an Audioholics review, that the Marantz AMP10, starts changing frequency response at 7 channels driven or more, and it's a limit of the power supply which is single 120V plug. The AMP10 was something I was considering because of a good sale lately (to the point I probably wouldn't lose money if I were to resell it within a few years), and it matching my Marantz AV10 pre-pro aesthetically. But seeing that information, my interest was thrown on the AMP10.

I run 240V to my two Crown 8|300N amps, and so they get all the power they can demand. I would expect with 240V power the Crowns would supply rated power to all 8 channels at once with no funny business, but maybe that's not realistic either?

Curious if you happen to know or even have an assumption?

Here is the video on the AMP10 that shows it changing frequency response when more than 7 channels are asking for full power (for 800-900milliseconds) Gene says this does not happen with 5 channels driven, the AMP10 at five channels at full load maintains a flat frequency response.

That discussion at timestamp 9:47

 

[Archaea]

On a related note (regarding fan noise in these and similar Crown amps), I just did a fan replacement on a Crown DCi 2|1250 that I bought used on Ebay. The stock fans (one cooling the PS and the other cooling the amp module) had developed some noise and whine over time (amp was dated 2016). I replaced these with different 24Vdc that have a much lower noise (16.7dBA), but the tradeoff I accepted was lower max CFM and static pressure capability. With my head 3 feet away I can barely hear a thing from the new fans in a quiet room.

There are a couple of different companies that supply fans for this application, and there seems to be a couple of different models that trade off fan speed and noise vs CFM and static pressure. For example, from CUI (Digikey) you can get the following:
MODEL -- CFM -- static pressure in inch H2O -- NOISE dBA
CFM-6025V-231-167 -- 16.0 -- 0.10 -- 16.7
CFM-6025V-238-220 -- 19.3 -- 0.15 -- 22.0
CFM-6025V-245-270 -- 23.5 -- 0.21 -- 27.0
CFM-6025V-252-312 -- 27.0 -- 0.31 -- 31.2

The stock fan is produced by Jamicon, and has the following specs:
JF060-2H -- 15.56 -- 0.196 -- 29.4

Even if/when new the stock fan is much noisier but provides higher static pressure. This would ensure good airflow even when packed into a rack with other equipment, etc.

I decided that if I provide good access to cool room air and do not expect to push the amp because I will not be using it to play low crest factor music at max output, I the lower noise fans should be sufficient. But it is nice to see that you can select a level of performance that falls in between these extremes if you would like.

These amps get quite hot in extended use. When my 8|300Ns are on for hours on end, they pour really hot air out the back, even with the stock fans. I would be very careful about fan modding to lower CFM fans. Even at idle, these units create a lot of heat and power draw. That was discussed in the last couple pages. My 8|300N each run over 200 watts at idle. 200 watts per 2U chassis -- all the time, nothing less. That's a lot of heat in that space, and it needs to be removed. Yours look like they run over 100 watts at idle... still a lot of heat for a 2U chassis if there isn't much airflow. It isn't even about using the amps conservatively, if at idle they are getting too hot with a fan mod.....?

The enemy of capacitors is heat, and frankly I don't think I'd want to risk shortening the lifespan of your expensive amp to save noise.

Question: Now that you've modded the fans -- how hot do your units feel just powered on idle for a few hours? Have you felt the top of the case, or the airflow out the back? I'd consider buying an IR temperature reader and see what you read. It'll take some time to get heat soaked, so you should check on them closely after they've been turned on for half a day at idle or after a long movie or spirited music session. From the world of crypto mining that I took a deep dive into, I learned, (regarding the health of the GPUs and equipment used for mining)---the amount of life extinguished from capacitors running at 70*C vs. 90*C is measured in years. So while the equipment won't immediately fail by overheating, its longevity is compromised pretty intensely.

 

[Spkrdctr]

@amirm

Is it your opinion that Crown X|N Drivecore amps will hold true to their full individual channel power ratings if supplied 240v power, and to all channels when all channels driven?

I was just watching an Audioholics review, that the Marantz AMP10, starts changing frequency response at 7 channels driven or more, and it's a limit of the power supply which is single 120V plug. The AMP10 was something I was considering because of a good sale lately (to the point I probably wouldn't lose money if I were to resell it within a few years), and it matching my Marantz AV10 pre-pro aesthetically. But seeing that information, my interest was thrown on the AMP10.

I run 240V to my two Crown 8|300N amps, and so they get all the power they can demand. I would expect with 240V power the Crowns would supply rated power to all 8 channels at once with no funny business, but maybe that's not realistic either?

Curious if you happen to know or even have an assumption?

Here is the video on the AMP10 that shows it changing frequency response when more than 7 channels are asking for full power (for 800-900milliseconds) Gene says this does not happen with 5 channels driven, the AMP10 at five channels at full load maintains a flat frequency response.

That discussion at timestamp 9:47

You will be fine with that amp. Running 7 channels at full load is not ever going to happen. If it did it would be for short bursts less than 1/2 to 1 second. It is not that important. He says 5 channels full load is OK, so that shows that it has a very robust power ability. The problem happens when units have only two channel full load on a surround receiver. That is just not near enough power. So, you will be fine with your amp and I would not worry about it at all. Speaker choice is far more important than trying to get 7 or 9 channels running at full load.

 

[Archaea]

You will be fine with that amp. Running 7 channels at full load is not ever going to happen. If it did it would be for short bursts less than 1/2 to 1 second. It is not that important. He says 5 channels full load is OK, so that shows that it has a very robust power ability. The problem happens when units have only two channel full load on a surround receiver. That is just not near enough power. So, you will be fine with your amp and I would not worry about it at all. Speaker choice is far more important than trying to get 7 or 9 channels running at full load.

If it loses power at 7 channels at 200 watts and changes tone, (~1400 watts) I’d like to see the test repeated with 15 channels. What happens when you double the load. As to real world content doing that, it certainly wouldn’t be common, but the intro to Gravity might be a contender. There is that sine wave sweep that is so loud coming from all the speakers at the beginning of the movie. Timestamp 28-39 seconds for instance.


I wonder if the AMP10 would audibly misbehave on that opening running 15 channels at full reference volume on 92dB sensitive 8 ohm speakers. 89dB sensitive speakers? If it misbehaves at 7 channels and 200 watts, does it misbehave at 90 watts and 15 channels? (~1350 watts)

Less?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

If it loses power at 7 channels and changes tone, I’d like to see the test repeated with 15 channels. What happens when you double the load. As to real world content doing that, it certainly wouldn’t be common, but the intro to Gravity might be a contender. There is that sine wave sweep that is so loud coming from all the speakers at the beginning of the movie. Timestamp 28-39 seconds for instance. I wonder if the AMP10 would misbehave on that opening running 15 channels at full reference volume on 92dB sensitive 8 ohm speakers. 89dB sensitive speakers. If it misbehaves at 7 channels and 200 watts, does it misbehave at 100 watts and 15 channels? Less?

I'd say it depends on the frequency. Below 80 Hz or so is off-loaded to subwoofers anyway. And if one have a home cinema setup with all full range speakers and no subs, hopefully they won't be powered by one AVR..

 

[Archaea]

I'd say it depends on the frequency. Below 80 Hz or so is off-loaded to subwoofers anyway. And if one have a home cinema setup with all full range speakers and no subs, hopefully they won't be powered by one AVR..

I've always wanted to see power requirement by frequency plots, but have never found one.
Are you aware of a good read on this?

IE if you cross your speakers over at 80Hz, vs. running them at 40Hz crossover or what not, power requirements logically drop, but I haven't seen any objective data testing the specifics on this. I'd like to find some to learn more.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I've always wanted to see power requirement by frequency plots, but have never found one.
Are you aware of a good read on this?

IE if you cross your speakers over at 80Hz, vs. running them at 40Hz crossover or what not, power requirements logically drop, but I haven't seen any objective data testing the specifics on this. I'd like to find some to learn more.

How much power does an amplifier need with this type of range of dynamic music

Feel free to use this calculator. Add sensitivity to the speaker and then tell which effect you have chosen and why. Weigh in that you want some headroom. http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/REAP.html You can select music from this list. Or something else, but in that case tell us how you...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[charlielaub]

These amps get quite hot in extended use. When my 8|300Ns are on for hours on end, they pour really hot air out the back, even with the stock fans. I would be very careful about fan modding to lower CFM fans. Even at idle, these units create a lot of heat and power draw. That was discussed in the last couple pages. My 8|300N each run over 200 watts at idle. 200 watts per 2U chassis -- all the time, nothing less. That's a lot of heat in that space, and it needs to be removed. Yours look like they run over 100 watts at idle... still a lot of heat for a 2U chassis if there isn't much airflow. It isn't even about using the amps conservatively, if at idle they are getting too hot with a fan mod.....?

View attachment 333793


The enemy of capacitors is heat, and frankly I don't think I'd want to risk shortening the lifespan of your expensive amp to save noise.

Question: Now that you've modded the fans -- how hot do your units feel just powered on idle for a few hours? Have you felt the top of the case, or the airflow out the back? I'd consider buying an IR temperature reader and see what you read. It'll take some time to get heat soaked, so you should check on them closely after they've been turned on for half a day at idle or after a long movie or spirited music session. From the world of crypto mining that I took a deep dive into, I learned, (regarding the health of the GPUs and equipment used for mining)---the amount of life extinguished from capacitors running at 70*C vs. 90*C is measured in years. So while the equipment won't immediately fail by overheating, its longevity is compromised pretty intensely.

Honestly the area of the chassis above the amp module does get slightly warm during use but the area above the PS hardly exceeds room temp. I use the unit out in the open, in an open rack, so air flow thru and around the amp chassis is better than average. But good observations and thanks for pointing out the idle dissipation figure from the manual. I have the analog-only Dci not the "N" version but it's only 5W less at idle.

I bought another DCi 2|1250 and I plan to do a fan replacement on it as well. This time I bought a slightly higher static pressure fan for the amp module. It's pretty tight around that part of the internals and I want to make sure the fan can actually push the air through the parts to cool them.

Overall I am very happy with the amp. 1250 Watts is a level of power that is beyond the reach of my other high performance consumer gear, and I have some subs that will lap up all the power that it can provide.

Also, regarding power capability, the Dci line includes active PFC and this should help the PS meet the demands since it is drawing current during the entire mains waveform and not just at the peak of the waveform.

 

[dlaloum]

If it loses power at 7 channels at 200 watts and changes tone, (~1400 watts) I’d like to see the test repeated with 15 channels. What happens when you double the load. As to real world content doing that, it certainly wouldn’t be common, but the intro to Gravity might be a contender. There is that sine wave sweep that is so loud coming from all the speakers at the beginning of the movie. Timestamp 28-39 seconds for instance.


I wonder if the AMP10 would audibly misbehave on that opening running 15 channels at full reference volume on 92dB sensitive 8 ohm speakers. 89dB sensitive speakers? If it misbehaves at 7 channels and 200 watts, does it misbehave at 90 watts and 15 channels? (~1350 watts)

Less?

With 92db/wm speakers, you would achieved peak reference level (105db) at 1m with a single speaker, using a grand total of (drum roll).... 16W

2 speakers - increase 3db or drop power 50%
double the distance, decrease 6db.... requires 4x the power

Assuming a BIG room with distance from speakers at 4m (unlikely unless it is a professional theatre!) - and using a pair of speakers ... the same level is achieved with 128W

For typical home setups - you can achieve reference levels easily with between 16W and 32W.... and almost nobody listens at reference levels!! (I tend to listen at 10db below reference... so my amps are idling along at no more than circa 4W)

Seems to me that some of the concerns about huge power into many channels, are a bit overblown.... yes you want some headroom, but if you got even close to using that amount of power, your ears would most likely be "blown"...

 

[Archaea]

With 92db/wm speakers, you would achieved peak reference level (105db) at 1m with a single speaker, using a grand total of (drum roll).... 16W

2 speakers - increase 3db or drop power 50%
double the distance, decrease 6db.... requires 4x the power

Assuming a BIG room with distance from speakers at 4m (unlikely unless it is a professional theatre!) - and using a pair of speakers ... the same level is achieved with 128W

For typical home setups - you can achieve reference levels easily with between 16W and 32W.... and almost nobody listens at reference levels!! (I tend to listen at 10db below reference... so my amps are idling along at no more than circa 4W)

Seems to me that some of the concerns about huge power into many channels, are a bit overblown.... yes you want some headroom, but if you got even close to using that amount of power, your ears would most likely be "blown"...

I have some qualms about the numbers you've presented.
My front speakers drop off about 10dB measured from 11-12 foot distance to main listening position.
Your numbers also don't account for EQ application. (Audyssey can boost up to 9dB for instance -- each autoeq system has their own limits - if you choose to use them) 9dB of boost can eat up headroom fast,
Finally, I do listen to hours on end at true reference in my theater, so this is something I value.

 

[dlaloum]

I have some qualms about the numbers you've presented.
My front speakers drop off about 10dB measured from 11-12 foot distance to main listening position.
Your numbers also don't account for EQ application. (Audyssey can boost up to 9dB for instance -- each autoeq system has their own limits - if you choose to use them) 9dB of boost can eat up headroom fast,
Finally, I do listen to hours on end at true reference in my theater, so this is something I value.

In my environment at a listening distance of circa 9ft, with speakers of 86db/wm efficiency... in an open plan space (so typically taking more rather than less power...) - the power level LED's on my amp never light up the 16W LED - even at the most extreme peaks.
Sure that's not laboratory grade measurements - and I listen at a lower level than you do, but even allowing for all variables - the actual power used to achieve the db required for reference level are in the order of magnitude I indicated.

My amps (Crown XLS2500) are capable of 400W+ so power availability is not a problem - and they drive the speakers much better than my AVR, due to the speakers need for high current (impedance drops to 1.6 ohm)

But I have also run the speakers with a Quad 606 amp, rated at only 135W - and it made no audible difference - nor should it, as I am never going to be using the power available from the Quad amp, let alone the power from the Crown amp.

In terms of "playing it safe" and providing plenty of headroom etc.... yeah I can see a purpose up to circa 120W@8ohm maybe - beyond that, in a home environment, it is total excess. (Current capability to maintain that output into difficult loads is where the audible difference happens between amps rated at the same power levels...)

The whole audyssey & EQ thing is a red herring - that is all about adjusting your gain/signal levels before it gets to the amps... once we get to the amps & speakers, we are measuring power outputs and db delivered from that power...