Crossover Faults: Harshness & Wondering Image?

[ClassicalMusicGuy]

What speakers where you previously using where this issue was absent from?

I sold my Maggies and Adcom electronics 15+ years ago and replaced them with a family-friendlier alternative. I've been on headphones-only for music listening since that time. This is an effort to move to a social music listening experience now that we are in empty-nest mode.

 

[Everett T]

I sold my Maggies and Adcom electronics 15+ years ago and replaced them with a family-friendlier alternative. I've been on headphones-only for music listening since that time. This is an effort to move to a social music listening experience now that we are in empty-nest mode.

I had electrostatic speakers (ML Prodigy) and enjoyed string music/vocalist on them very much. A combination of dipole and a 200ish crossover really worked for my ears but ultimately the speaker didn't work for multiple people and I moved on. I'm assuming you're located in Europe or close based on your demo selections, do you have access to JBL Pro, like the 4367 I mentioned?

Good directivity, effortless dynamics and almost good as the M2.

This article that was posted as another thread has some interesting thoughts on potential crossover issues.

Unreasonable Audio Innovation

Keynote at the AES160th Convention Reception, Cityhall of Copenhagen,May 29th, 2026

purifi-audio.com

 

[ClassicalMusicGuy]

I had electrostatic speakers (ML Prodigy) and enjoyed string music/vocalist on them very much. A combination of dipole and a 200ish crossover really worked for my ears but ultimately the speaker didn't work for multiple people and I moved on. I'm assuming you're located in Europe or close based on your demo selections, do you have access to JBL Pro, like the 4367 I mentioned?
View attachment 536599
Good directivity, effortless dynamics and almost good as the M2.

View attachment 536603
This article that was posted as another thread has some interesting thoughts on potential crossover issues.

Unreasonable Audio Innovation

Keynote at the AES160th Convention Reception, Cityhall of Copenhagen,May 29th, 2026

purifi-audio.com

Los Angeles, actually. There are lots of pro audio shops, although I have not attempted to do auditions in any of them. However, there is no way that my wife is going to allow a 4367 in the house.
Maybe a Neumann monitor?

 

[Everett T]

Los Angeles, actually. There are lots of pro audio shops, although I have not attempted to do auditions in any of them. However, there is no way that my wife is going to allow a 4367 in the house.
Maybe a Neumann monitor?

The Neumann products are all very neutral and take EQ well if you want to tailor the sound. The AsciLab C8C would be another one to consider.

edit::
In addition to Philharmonic and AsciLab I forgot to mention the Audio First Cadentia 3. It also plays near full range and great candidate for classical music.

 

[PirateQuinn]

Paragraphs about "a recording" but you don't name the recording? AI slop? *Edit* sorry I see it now in...post 15. What track and time do these issues manifest themselves?

 

[Thomas_A]

Hi ASR,

I have been a lurker for quite a while, and this is my first post. I'm an OG audiophile with roots in the 70s and a classical music lover. I have been auditioning new loudspeakers, but there are some audible issues that I repeatedly encounter.

My standard audition music is a classic recording of a violin concerto. I like this particular recording because it uses straightforward miking techniques, has a gorgeous violin sound over most of the instrument's range, and presents a formidable challenge to most speakers in creating a credible orchestral sound. Unlike a typical demo recording, this one only sounds good with really good speakers.

Typical audible problems I have encountered in listening to speakers that get good reviews and are not cheap:

1. Specific violin notes are reproduced harshly. Not a range of notes - just specific ones.
2. The violinist appears to be doing a jig while playing or the stereo image falls apart and smears across the two speakers on certain violin notes.
3. The violinist appears to be doing knee bends because the various notes radiate from different drivers in the loudspeaker cabinet. Upon playing a scale, it is apparent that I am hearing the physical transition between the drivers as the frequency increases. Even if I was sitting many feet farther away, the difference in the timbre of the violin through each driver is apparent.

I reckon that these are symptoms of crossover and dispersion issues among the drivers. I am curious if y'all have had similar experiences and perhaps have been able to experiment and validate the causes.

To a man, every salesman has gotten upset when I point out these deficiencies in their speakers. Nobody has said something like, "You must be a very experienced listener. You need to try our Acme Model 10000 - you will love it." Additionally, I do not recall a reviewer (professional or otherwise) who has commented about similar phenomena in their review.

For me, these flaws make a loudspeaker unsuitable for enjoying the kind of music that I listen to. Is it really too much to expect speakers to convey the performers standing or sitting in a space? Am I the weirdo for hearing these types of defects?

-Brett

Perhaps you are experiencing the stereo error. Shirley et al 2 kHz dip followed by the 3-4 kHz peak.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Well if you liked the KEF Reference 1 then that may be the best choice. The problem is that you can listen to hundreds of speakers in various show rooms and when you set them up in your room they will sound different. Guaranteed! I would keep trying out speakers until you get a top five list. Then just go listen to those top five and pick the overall best. Then, when you have them in your home if they sound different, you know it is your room and not the speakers. You might find that a "perfect" pair of speakers is impossible to find. You will need room correction and EQ most likely. You are starting down a serious path of time, effort and money. Good Luck and I hope you find fantastic speakers!

 

[Ageve]

Paragraphs about "a recording" but you don't name the recording? AI slop? *Edit* sorry I see it now in...post 15. What track and time do these issues manifest themselves?

59 years old. Quite distorted and poor dynamics (compared to modern classical recordings).

 

[MAB]

59 years old. Quite distorted and poor dynamics (compared to modern classical recordings).

I had a hard time finding the correct recording OP was referring to as well. Thanks for fishing this out. I agree. I have favorite songs that are like this, and they make me happy. But maybe not the best test of speakers, even if they bring a smile to my face when I hear them on a good system.

 

[bmc0]

The above album on YouTube Music.

The solo violin sounds pretty good. Perceived location is stable with my setup; I can see why @ClassicalMusicGuy finds this recording useful for the stated purpose. The orchestra sound is not so great (audible distortion, etc), especially in the loudest sections.

 

[ClassicalMusicGuy]

59 years old. Quite distorted and poor dynamics (compared to modern classical recordings).

Yes - I'd say there is a fair amount of IM distortion on the orchestra typical of analog tape recordings of the era. However, I think that much of what sounds like "distortion" is due to the extraordinarily high reverberation of the church as compared to, say, Boston Symphony Hall. Even in real life, I would expect a harshness to the sound in that environment, as well as a muddling of dynamics. What I have found is that some speakers do a much more credible job than others of conveying the sense of space of a church while others just make a harsh and virtually unlistenable mess out of it - especially if they have inadequate bass. One advantage to using orchestral recordings (that are recorded using a straightfoward microphone technique) for evaluating speaker bass is that the balance between, say, the cellos, basses, tympani, and the violins is somewhat consistent among real world performances and recordings. Speakers that roll off the bass rapidly after 70 Hz or so will essentially remove the cellos and tympani from the performance - which makes the performance of Beethoven fall apart. The same speakers may do a passable job of playing pop/rock music (intentionally mixed to sound decent when reproducted with sub-standard equipment) since the bass lines are still present even if attenuated. Therefore, I have found that I can more quickly identify bass capability with an orchestral recording. YMMV.

 

[ClassicalMusicGuy]

Well if you liked the KEF Reference 1 then that may be the best choice. The problem is that you can listen to hundreds of speakers in various show rooms and when you set them up in your room they will sound different. Guaranteed! I would keep trying out speakers until you get a top five list. Then just go listen to those top five and pick the overall best. Then, when you have them in your home if they sound different, you know it is your room and not the speakers. You might find that a "perfect" pair of speakers is impossible to find. You will need room correction and EQ most likely. You are starting down a serious path of time, effort and money. Good Luck and I hope you find fantastic speakers!

I am surprised that my "short list" is so short, even at a price range that I think most people would consider serious money. Despite the variations in dealer rooms, it is still possible to verify that they sound like their measurements would suggest in terms of frequency response and directivity. I tend to automatically calculate the room mode frequencies and make estimates of wall reflectivity so as to be on alert for anomolies, so I don't think that we are being unduly influcenced by room characteristics. It is true that it is rare that they create a "sounds great" impression, which is a shame since that should be their job description.

For example, one dealer was trying to sell us B&W and Focal bookshelf speakers. Both were unlistenable to us due to the extreme rise in the high-frequencies that they are famous for. Since these were bookshelf speakers, they didn't have enough bass to compete with the high frequencies. The salesman moved them from the "speaker zoo" room into the high-end room and powered them with a stack of McIntosh tube equipment. Same problem (as expected). When he played his standard demo jazz track, they sounded cool. But on classical music, nothing remotely close to realism. He had no clue how to respond, except to offer some large $12k Revel speakers. If he had more than one model of Revel speakers in stock, maybe we would have found something to add to the short list.

 

[Flaesh]

it was useful for quickly separating the goats from the sheep, the men from the boys, or whatever your favorite metaphor is.

My favorite is separating the goats from the chaff. That is, faulty speakers\xovers and room problems.

 

[Redacted]

In the UK it's "separating the wheat from the chaff", but combine and harvest the words as you wish.

 

[Flaesh]

Throughout the world, wherever anyone has heard of the Bible, it means "to separate good from bad." Here, however, it's about separating two different bad things. Or identifying one (worse) problem from two possible ones.

 

[Redacted]

Throughout the world, wherever anyone has heard of the Bible, it means "to separate good from bad." Here, however, it's about separating two different bad things. Or identifying one (worse) problem from two possible ones.

I'd be surprised if anyone around the world did not know the concept, irrespective of what nonsense books they may have read!

 

[Maxim-ICOM]

Hi ASR,

I have been a lurker for quite a while, and this is my first post. I'm an OG audiophile with roots in the 70s and a classical music lover. I have been auditioning new loudspeakers, but there are some audible issues that I repeatedly encounter.

My standard audition music is a classic recording of a violin concerto. I like this particular recording because it uses straightforward miking techniques, has a gorgeous violin sound over most of the instrument's range, and presents a formidable challenge to most speakers in creating a credible orchestral sound. Unlike a typical demo recording, this one only sounds good with really good speakers.

Typical audible problems I have encountered in listening to speakers that get good reviews and are not cheap:

1. Specific violin notes are reproduced harshly. Not a range of notes - just specific ones.
2. The violinist appears to be doing a jig while playing or the stereo image falls apart and smears across the two speakers on certain violin notes.
3. The violinist appears to be doing knee bends because the various notes radiate from different drivers in the loudspeaker cabinet. Upon playing a scale, it is apparent that I am hearing the physical transition between the drivers as the frequency increases. Even if I was sitting many feet farther away, the difference in the timbre of the violin through each driver is apparent.

I reckon that these are symptoms of crossover and dispersion issues among the drivers. I am curious if y'all have had similar experiences and perhaps have been able to experiment and validate the causes.

To a man, every salesman has gotten upset when I point out these deficiencies in their speakers. Nobody has said something like, "You must be a very experienced listener. You need to try our Acme Model 10000 - you will love it." Additionally, I do not recall a reviewer (professional or otherwise) who has commented about similar phenomena in their review.

For me, these flaws make a loudspeaker unsuitable for enjoying the kind of music that I listen to. Is it really too much to expect speakers to convey the performers standing or sitting in a space? Am I the weirdo for hearing these types of defects?

-Brett

1,2,3 are problems with speaker design: baffle/cabinet shape, drivers selection, frequency response and phase align between drivers.
Reproduce orchestral sound and natural instruments is not an easy job for speakers and you will see many speakers what do not do this job good even if size and price is extreme.