It's definitely more psycology than hard metrics. With the former it's quite easy to see the appeal, with the latter it's harder. However the uncertainties affecting IEMs in-situ FR is well know empirically. Thats why a tuning that's vetted by some one with a track record is apealling when selling points intersect.
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Yeah but the guy as tuned a lot of very cheap and very similarly performing IEMs. So I guess what's left is the price that people will look at and hope that will somehow make a audible performance?
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You wouldn’t say that two headphones, one with planer drivers and one with dynamic drivers that measure the same, on the same measurement rig will offer the same response at the eardrum.
I can't speak for others but the 7Hz Zero 2 has fit issue for me, note that measurements can't convey this. Truther Zero and Red fit me fine but sounded subjectively blunted to me on drums, and many EQ iterations didn't lead me to satisfaction. I haven't tried other Crinacle IEMs.
Curupira
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Unfortunately that's not the case. I've both the Zero Red and the Zero 2s, they sound very different and I didn't manage to get the 2s to sound close to the reds even with EQ using multiple data points (graas, 711 and 5128).
And to displace any price bias accusations, the weeks after I got the Reds I was so impressed by them that I sold my old ThieAudio's Hype 4, a hybrid that costs 3-4x more than the Truthears and yet sounded worse to my ears and HTRF.
IME I could never force some features like high treble extension and identical bass shelves with EQ alone: in the first case, the driver, nozzle/construction and ear canal interactions are so unique to each pairing that bruteforcing through EQ would require silly high Q and gain bands, negative or positive; in the latter case, even though the 43AG and 711 tend to agree on low-mids and bass linearity, they never seem the same to my ears: my Timeless, Zero 2 and Red sound distinctly different although they measure almost the same. The hump shown in 5128, furthermore, makes some like the reviewers at The Headphone show speculate that this is due to ear impedance and specific driver interaction, but this is just conjecture.
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Why not? What is it that sounds different if the measurements don't support it?
Yeah fit is of course a good point! But do a 150 euro IEM fit better than a 15 euro one? Maybe in some cases, but most probably not in all cases.
I have a pair of 7Hz Zero2 and Truthear Gate and with EQ I really can't tell any difference. But I do think the Gate looks better and the cable came with a microphone, so therefor I use them. And yeah sure the ear canal do make them sound different, but that's only in the upper treble, and there's nothing that says that a more expensive one do that in an objectively better way.
Curupira
Addicted to Fun and Learning
That's the thing. They shouldn't sound different to me, but they do, and I can only speculate why: insertion depth due to difference in construction, different seals due to bore format, overall tonal balance masking up how I perceive the bass and even masking effect itself (this is very noticeable in the zero 2s, as they have a lot of subbass and not so much mid and upper treble.
And I'm not saying the more expensive ones are better, they're just different. IMO the best ones are the Reds, and they're not the most expensive pair I have had.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #128
Got my Daybreak today. First impression is excellent, from unboxing, cable, connectors, build quality. Fit is great with the included M sized silicone tips.
Tonally a little brighter than my Red but still early to get a final verdict. Listening to my most known albums and hearing how they differ from what I know. When I can clearly hear how different albums are mixed and mastered from on another it is already a good sign that the reproduction is getting out of the way and letting the music come forward. So far so good.
Graphs tell they are very close but to me they are not so much in the extremes (bass and treble).
graph.hangout.audio
Tonally a little brighter than my Red but still early to get a final verdict. Listening to my most known albums and hearing how they differ from what I know. When I can clearly hear how different albums are mixed and mastered from on another it is already a good sign that the reproduction is getting out of the way and letting the music come forward. So far so good.
Graphs tell they are very close but to me they are not so much in the extremes (bass and treble).
Crinacle's 5128 Graph Tool | Hangout.Audio
Compare graphs from the world's largest public database of ITU-T P.57 Type 4.3 IEM measurements, maintained by Crinacle.
graph.hangout.audio
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Curupira
Addicted to Fun and Learning
IEM companies tend to boost high treble in order to give an illusion of more detail. Even if there isn't a lot of content there in the mix, the trailing high harmonics from the main tones can be emphasized to alter the overall timbre of the song, adding to that perception.
The Harman Smoothed target's high treble slope, on the other hand, fails by going completely the other way. Iems that have little to no response after 10khz, like the Galileo, sound muffled and incoherent, like a low pass was out on the 10khz ear resonance.
The ideal scenario, for me, is something in between the Sonion E50 and ESTs implementation and the usual muted treble response we get from a lot of cheap but well tuned single DD. And I only mention driver configuration because I see a correlation with linear extension in hybrid iems and muted or overemphasized response from single driver solutions, at least in 5128 measurements. Crinacle himself tuned the blue 2s with foam eartips as a handycap/clutch for that reason.
IME, the best and most realistic implementation of high treble I heard in an iem was from the Blessing 3 and the Zeros Red, with only the latter nailing the overall tuning aside from that range.
So you're admitting to making your own IEM and company, and now resorting to putting down your competition to glaze your own product?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #131
Busy week so not much listening to report but I have to agree with the review on The Headphone Show that using other tips with wide bore helped a little with the highs. I am liking the Daybreak so far.Got my Daybreak today. First impression is excellent, from unboxing, cable, connectors, build quality. Fit is great with the included M sized silicone tips.
Tonally a little brighter than my Red but still early to get a final verdict. Listening to my most known albums and hearing how they differ from what I know. When I can clearly hear how different albums are mixed and mastered from on another it is already a good sign that the reproduction is getting out of the way and letting the music come forward. So far so good.
Graphs tell they are very close but to me they are not so much in the extremes (bass and treble).
Crinacle's 5128 Graph Tool | Hangout.Audio
Compare graphs from the world's largest public database of ITU-T P.57 Type 4.3 IEM measurements, maintained by Crinacle.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #132
TL/DR I prefer my Red to the Daybreak.
After swapping tips it helped taming the highs but still I thought the Daybreak had "more resolution". In reality was high mids and lower treble pushed forward compared to the Red.
I remember that the JM-1 goal is to reproduce linear speakers in a room, so I thought that fortunately I have a great system to compare to: March Audio Sointuva AWG in a dedicated room, symmetrical and acoustically treated.
So swapping the same song between Red - Sointuva - Daybreak - Sointuva - Red a few times back and forth, I noticed the differences more clearly. The extra hump the Daybreak has in the shout and upper mids causes an itchynesse and extra grit in shouting vocals and distorted guitars that is distracting. Even with excellent hi-res piano recordings the extra "focus" it gives comes at the expense of a thinner body of the notes.
But the bass of the Daybreak is less bloated and better defined than the Red, somewhat closer to my speakers. The ideal world would be to have Daybreak below say 1kHz and Red above it. Not having this options, I think the Red rubs me the least between them.
Edit: for information below is the estimated in room response of the speakers as measured by Erin. In a dedicated and treated symmetrical listening room, the reference doesn't get better than this IMO.
After swapping tips it helped taming the highs but still I thought the Daybreak had "more resolution". In reality was high mids and lower treble pushed forward compared to the Red.
I remember that the JM-1 goal is to reproduce linear speakers in a room, so I thought that fortunately I have a great system to compare to: March Audio Sointuva AWG in a dedicated room, symmetrical and acoustically treated.
So swapping the same song between Red - Sointuva - Daybreak - Sointuva - Red a few times back and forth, I noticed the differences more clearly. The extra hump the Daybreak has in the shout and upper mids causes an itchynesse and extra grit in shouting vocals and distorted guitars that is distracting. Even with excellent hi-res piano recordings the extra "focus" it gives comes at the expense of a thinner body of the notes.
But the bass of the Daybreak is less bloated and better defined than the Red, somewhat closer to my speakers. The ideal world would be to have Daybreak below say 1kHz and Red above it. Not having this options, I think the Red rubs me the least between them.
Edit: for information below is the estimated in room response of the speakers as measured by Erin. In a dedicated and treated symmetrical listening room, the reference doesn't get better than this IMO.
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Phosphenetre
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Thanks for that direct subjective comparison between the TruthEar Red and the Daybreak. I own both, but haven't had the time to go back and forth yet, at least seamlessly. Did you use the Red with or without the 10 ohm impedance (Bass+) adapter for this?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #134
Without the 10 ohm adapter. It's bassy enough without it, and with it would bass head territory.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #135
CrinEar Protocol Max is a 3.5+4.4mm dongle based on 2 x CS43198 + SG9262 opamps with PEQ driving 500mW @ 32 ohms for under 100 USD.
www.facebook.com
A clone of TRN Black Pearl by TTGK?
HIFI FREEDOM: Beyond the hype | Upcoming dongle DAC from Crin's brand Crinear named Protocol max | Facebook
Upcoming dongle DAC from Crin's brand Crinear named Protocol max Its featuring dual CS43198 chip and dual Sg8262 op amp. Pushing upto 500mw@32ohm of power from 4.4mm BAL in high gain mode It also...
www.facebook.com
A clone of TRN Black Pearl by TTGK?
Important Update (8/16/25)
WalkPlay/TTGK is another company reacting to the issue of DRE-induced distortion associated with the CS431xx chips! A new firmware release for the TRN Black Pearl changed a key parameter related to DRE operation. With this firmware installed, the Black Pearl does not exhibit audible distortion behavior caused by DRE while retaining reconstruction filter options. An analysis based on measurements was added to the bottom of this review.
WalkPlay/TTGK is another company reacting to the issue of DRE-induced distortion associated with the CS431xx chips! A new firmware release for the TRN Black Pearl changed a key parameter related to DRE operation. With this firmware installed, the Black Pearl does not exhibit audible distortion behavior caused by DRE while retaining reconstruction filter options. An analysis based on measurements was added to the bottom of this review.
Introduction
(Picture from TRN-Audio website)
...(Picture from TRN-Audio website)
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Not a clone but most likely an evolution, Black Pearl board (TTGK CB5100 Pro) doesn't mount additional op-amps.CrinEar Protocol Max is a 3.5+4.4mm dongle based on 2 x CS43198 + SG9262 opamps with PEQ driving 500mW @ 32 ohms for under 100 USD.
HIFI FREEDOM: Beyond the hype | Upcoming dongle DAC from Crin's brand Crinear named Protocol max | Facebook
Upcoming dongle DAC from Crin's brand Crinear named Protocol max Its featuring dual CS43198 chip and dual Sg8262 op amp. Pushing upto 500mw@32ohm of power from 4.4mm BAL in high gain mode It also...
A clone of TRN Black Pearl by TTGK?
Important Update (8/16/25)
WalkPlay/TTGK is another company reacting to the issue of DRE-induced distortion associated with the CS431xx chips! A new firmware release for the TRN Black Pearl changed a key parameter related to DRE operation. With this firmware installed, the Black Pearl does not exhibit audible distortion behavior caused by DRE while retaining reconstruction filter options. An analysis based on measurements was added to the bottom of this review.
Introduction...
(Picture from TRN-Audio website)
Luciferium
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BGVP MX1 = CrinEar Protocol Max
CrinEar Protocol Max = BGVP MX1
The same PCB, other case
CrinEar Protocol Max = BGVP MX1
The same PCB, other case
OP
- Thread Starter
- #138
New thread opened, let's move the discussion over there.
New dongle DAC just released, based on ESS ES9039Q2M DAC with both 4.4 and 3.5 mm outputs, very powerful, mic support and PEQ for 90 usd list price. I just bought one, let's see.
nicehck.com
NICEHCK Octave ES9039Q2M Flagship Portable DAC & Headphone Amplifier |
NICEHCK Octave ES9039Q2M DAC AMP portable headphone amplifier dual SGM8262 op-amp 550mW 32Ω 3.5mm 4.4mm PCM768 DSD256 EQ APP Android iOS Windows MacOS
nicehck.com
Bernard23
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I've just ordered the daybreaks after investigating options for a set of IEMs that don't need EQ. I already own multiple sets:
Dunu EST 112
7Hz Zero 2
Truthear Zero Red
Tanchjim One
Hidizs MK12 Turris
Had mostly been EQing to Harman 2019 and investigated Meta / JM1 tuning (Joel does an excellent YT piece on how the target curve was derived) and realised I prefer it to Harman. I rarely use tanchjim one as the treble is wild, even after EQ so must be a tip issue but I can't be bothered to experiment, as my cheap goto are reds. I prefer them over the Zero 2. The reds are OK with EQ too though a bit bass heavy and lacking in presence in my ears.
Dunu are really nice but a bit ragged both with or without EQ, I can ever decide with them which I prefer, which is actually somewhat irritating as I'm constantly flipping between EQ on and off.
The MK12 are also really impressive, I got them early bird cheap, but they definitely need EQ and definitely not the red nozzles, and so here we are at the Daybreak. The target preference curve looks promising and a sensible evolution from the Zero Red which I know and like, and importantly where it needs improving.
Dunu EST 112
7Hz Zero 2
Truthear Zero Red
Tanchjim One
Hidizs MK12 Turris
Had mostly been EQing to Harman 2019 and investigated Meta / JM1 tuning (Joel does an excellent YT piece on how the target curve was derived) and realised I prefer it to Harman. I rarely use tanchjim one as the treble is wild, even after EQ so must be a tip issue but I can't be bothered to experiment, as my cheap goto are reds. I prefer them over the Zero 2. The reds are OK with EQ too though a bit bass heavy and lacking in presence in my ears.
Dunu are really nice but a bit ragged both with or without EQ, I can ever decide with them which I prefer, which is actually somewhat irritating as I'm constantly flipping between EQ on and off.
The MK12 are also really impressive, I got them early bird cheap, but they definitely need EQ and definitely not the red nozzles, and so here we are at the Daybreak. The target preference curve looks promising and a sensible evolution from the Zero Red which I know and like, and importantly where it needs improving.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #140
IME the Truthear Pure is better tuned than the CrinEar Daybreak to my liking.
