Crazy PA Coaxials for Hifi

[Ktacos]

I tried some cheap coax Dayton drivers recently, 12". Paired them with a CD and some DSP and boy it was some work to get it to something usable and it still didn't sound very good even with very linear response, just too many reflections on the CD. Honestly not sure why the DIY market is so bad for coax, even the non-pa stuff is generally pretty junky. We've got what, the sica 5.5 and that's about it as far drivers that don't have major issues? It's pretty interesting that one of the best ways to get good DIY coax is to buy another companies premade speaker and just rip out the driver. Major failure from driver manufacturers IMO to not have good coax on the market.

 

[Jukka]

You could get a 8" or so woofer and build your case so that a small dome tweeter gets mounted in front of the woofer, holded by arms. Like in car audio. Like this, but this can be made from wood:

That is technically coaxial, but would require DSP for proper time align. No space for horns.

 

[voodooless]

That is technically coaxial, but would require DSP for proper time align.

You can only time align this for a limited range of axis’s. That’s why these designs generally suck.

 

[popthere]

https://www.phlaudio.com/fileadmin/user_upload/phl_audio/2490_SpecSheet.pdf

it looks like a very interesting driver ... i would cut it at around 200Hz and use a decent 12" woofer bass box below for a full range DIY speaker
i see 112 dB for SPLmax but when cut below 200Hz it could go even higher with low distortion i wonder if they are on sale somewhere
i have already both cabinets and 2 bass boxes Just a simple xover would be needed

https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/coaxial-speaker-phl-audio-2490-with-dome-tweeter-8-6-ohm-8-inch.html

 

[Audionaut]

Major failure from driver manufacturers IMO to not have good coax on the market.

There are some very good and interesting coaxial chassis. As always, it depends on how you use them. I have heard speakers with very expensive and good chassis that were completely botched and incorrectly tuned, and there are also speakers made from relatively inexpensive materials that sound very good because the developer knows what he is doing.
Of course, this also applies to coaxial speakers.

B&C, BMS, Beyma, RCF, Celestion, Faital, Oberton Radian etc. manufacture very good coaxial speakers, and BMS and B&C even produce triaxial chassis.
Sica also offers PA and hi-fi chassis, and in the pure hi-fi sector, you will find Satori, Seas, and SB Audio, among others.

In summary: The market is full of good coaxial speakers.

 

[gino1961]

https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/coaxial-speaker-phl-audio-2490-with-dome-tweeter-8-6-ohm-8-inch.html

Thanks a lot for the info but i understand that quality comes at a price
i would cannibalize some used Tannoy then ... even the cheap ones made by Behringer maybe they are just fine

 

[popthere]

Yes, of course, PHL generally builds very good chassis and coaxial speakers.
As always, in this specific case it depends on the enclosure and the crossover, but PHL is not responsible for either of these.

The major advances in loudspeaker design over the last decade have been made in electronics and DSP; the loudspeaker drivers themselves have more or less reached their limits in terms of electrodynamic design.

A small amount of information was found

The internal filter of the DS8 (light blue-green output to the 8", dark blue output to the tweeter; yellow indicates the sound card short-circuited (neutrality check)):

by https://fr.audiofanzine.com/enceint...ds8-courbes-du-filtre-interne-et-du-spm8.html

 

[Chr1]

Interesting pair of Tannoys just appeared on Ebay here in the UK. Superdual 3144 drivers in T12 boxes
I'm a bit of a Tannoy fanboy and these are my dream drivers. Rare, with massive motor, magnet etc. As used in their flagship "Kingdom Royal" series. Probably the best DC Tannoy ever made. Lovely.
Just wish I could justify more speakers!

 

[gino1961]

Interesting pair of Tannoys just appeared on Ebay here in the UK. Superdual 3144 drivers in T12 boxes
I'm a bit of a Tannoy fanboy and these are my dream drivers. Rare, with massive motor, magnet etc. As used in their flagship "Kingdom Royal" series. Probably the best DC Tannoy ever made. Lovely.
Just wish I could justify more speakers!

i think that the DC unit used in the T12 is the 3142

https://coax.pin2.me/driver/3142/3142_t-s_parameters.pdf

but i could be wrong
very nice driver this 3142 Just lacking in the very low bass
Nothing that cannot be added separately

 

[Chr1]

No. The 3144 is a very different beast.

I have no less than eight 3142 drivers in various boxes. All used with subs.
I think that they are great drivers personally.

Both 12" and both made for use with subs.
But the 3144...

 

[gino1961]

No. The 3144 is a very different beast.

I have no less than eight 3142 drivers in various boxes. All used with subs.
I think that they are great drivers personally.

Both 12".
But the 3144...
View attachment 489659

Hi ! sorry and thank you for the kind and valuable reply
i cannot find the TS parameters for the 3144
For sure it looks really serious
i have also some of the cheaper and smaller Tannoy units and the idea is in future to do some DIY following the DC above woofer concept
other brands has used this concept as well

i prefer the woofer in a separate box anyway

My main doubt is about the crossing point ... i mean a smaller dc cut higher or a bigger dc cut lower ?

 

[Chr1]

Apologies, I misread your previous post on my phone earlier. Was shopping.

Yes, the T12 uses the 3142 driver. The Tannoys that I was referring to are hybrids, and have the Superdual 3144 drivers and crossovers. Inside T12 boxes and instead of the stock 3142s.

 

[popthere]

These are merely refinements to a system that has consisted of the same components for more than 100 years: diaphragm, surround, spider, basket, voice coil, magnet, pole plate, pole piece (pole core), air gap, dust cap (optional), connection wires, connection terminals, phase plug (optional), cooling vents (optional).

Purifi and Satori—and with them many other highly capable companies—also use this modular system and adapt or refine it.
And even Satori and Purifi are certainly not cheap.

What do you think of the APG DS8's directional performance? After all, it's coaxial, so I think it should be pretty good.

 

[MAB]

I was just made aware, crazy pa coaxials are indeed for HiFi.
Daniel Hertz Anton 15" coaxial speakers:

Daniel Hertz Anton speakers

danielhertz.com

$40k USD

Made with some very nice drivers that retail for ~$750 each:

15CXN88 8Ω - Coaxials - B&C Speakers

www.bcspeakers.com

I wonder if Hertz used the recommended B&C crossover:

FBCXN88 8Ω - Crossovers - B&C Speakers

www.bcspeakers.com

Somehow I doubt it. The allure to do something incoherent seems too strong to resist in many designs.

 

[Jukka]

I was just made aware, crazy pa coaxials are indeed for HiFi.
Daniel Hertz Anton 15" coaxial speakers:

Daniel Hertz Anton speakers

danielhertz.com

$40k USD

Made with some very nice drivers that retail for ~$750 each:

15CXN88 8Ω - Coaxials - B&C Speakers

www.bcspeakers.com

I wonder if Hertz used the recommended B&C crossover:

FBCXN88 8Ω - Crossovers - B&C Speakers

www.bcspeakers.com

Somehow I doubt it. The allure to do something incoherent seems too strong to resist in many designs.

Nice. Whenever a speaker brand releases a new speaker that has obvious PA driver, I try to recognize it by the looks. You can immediately see the curved cone profile and circular rings on the cone, that are typical to Eighteen sound and now to its mother company B&C speakers. The website states "hand built in Italy" which points to that exact direction, although there are many PA speaker companies in Italy. It also says it's using a new driver, and that 15CXN88 is a new driver with similar looks to the pictures (they often have small customizations, like trim rings and color). How did you know it's this driver? I didn't see it mentioned on the website.

 

[Heinrich]

I was just made aware, crazy pa coaxials are indeed for HiFi.
Daniel Hertz Anton 15" coaxial speakers:

Daniel Hertz Anton speakers

danielhertz.com

$40k USD

Made with some very nice drivers that retail for ~$750 each:

15CXN88 8Ω - Coaxials - B&C Speakers

www.bcspeakers.com

I wonder if Hertz used the recommended B&C crossover:

FBCXN88 8Ω - Crossovers - B&C Speakers

www.bcspeakers.com

Somehow I doubt it. The allure to do something incoherent seems too strong to resist in many designs.

It‘s all about accepting the drawbacks. Can‘t do anything about it. 80 degrees coverage, no polar diagram, nasty dips n peaks. No measurements whatsoever, but a pricing as if from planet Mars. Finally it was tuned, according to the ad, by a mixing engineer to taste—his. And an especially shiny finish, that they refer to Italy like it was Enzo Ferrari‘s red.

Can‘t think of anything more dubious.

 

[voodooless]

I was just made aware, crazy pa coaxials are indeed for HiFi.
Daniel Hertz Anton 15" coaxial speakers:

Daniel Hertz Anton speakers

danielhertz.com

$40k USD

Made with some very nice drivers that retail for ~$750 each:

15CXN88 8Ω - Coaxials - B&C Speakers

www.bcspeakers.com

I wonder if Hertz used the recommended B&C crossover:

FBCXN88 8Ω - Crossovers - B&C Speakers

www.bcspeakers.com

Somehow I doubt it. The allure to do something incoherent seems too strong to resist in many designs.

So, a speaker with about maybe €1500 a pair worth in parts, is sold for € 40k? Good for them if they pull it off. It doesn't look like a € 40k speaker..

It is a seriously good-looking driver if you can tame it. An active setup would probably do much better. There will be a slight directivity issue around 1 kHz unless you can cross it lower than the recommended 1.2 kHz. For home HiFi, that should be doable.

 

[HiMu]

I was just made aware, crazy pa coaxials are indeed for HiFi.
Daniel Hertz Anton 15" coaxial speakers:

Daniel Hertz Anton speakers

danielhertz.com

$40k USD

Made with some very nice drivers that retail for ~$750 each:

15CXN88 8Ω - Coaxials - B&C Speakers

www.bcspeakers.com

I wonder if Hertz used the recommended B&C crossover:

FBCXN88 8Ω - Crossovers - B&C Speakers

www.bcspeakers.com

Somehow I doubt it. The allure to do something incoherent seems too strong to resist in many designs.

The element has similar looking surface structure/pattern as https://sica.it/prodotto/15-cx-3-pl/

And the gasket has the same cutout pattern, compared to cxn88 right angle zigzag.

 

[MAB]

The element has similar looking surface structure/pattern as https://sica.it/prodotto/15-cx-3-pl/

And the gasket has the same cutout pattern, compared to cxn88 right angle zigzag.

I think you got it.
It is even ~half the cost of the B&C.
Even more affordable for a fun build project. And also looks great, with comprehensive measurements.

 

[voodooless]

I think the B&C unit is more likely because it a new driver, unlike the Sica. The marketing claims the use of a new PA driver. If it’s indeed the Sica, it’s even more of a money-grab