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Cranesong HEDD

Scrappy

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Discontinued / replaced with a “quantum” version with optical i/o, wordclock outs and some other conversion options. I have access to the original version tho..

However, all I’m looking for is some tasty distortion options to increase perceived loudness in a 105dB C-weighted limited venue (F in’ C weight.. I don’t even mix bass-heavy usually. Limit is 110 til 10:30, then 105. So IMO its 105...) A tool for “loud” shows that can’t be. Very very good line array and subs in this venue, those harmonics will be heard/ perceived.

Also would be a welcome DAC as the console is an M32 (love the tribe32, but it’s what it is)

Anyhow, I gotta measure latency first. I saw in the manual a jumper that switches “low jitter” to “low latency.”

If I’m mixing FOH this weekend, I’m grabbing one of these and seeing what’s good. But- would love any thoughts from ASR folks on this.
 

Blumlein 88

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Don't have anything I can tell you. Are you renting the Cranesong for the weekend? If so, how much is the rate on that? Might be a way for Amir to measure some more pro recording devices. Rent them for a couple days, measure and send back. No need to purchase one that way.
 

Matthias McCready

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Huge fan of Dave Hill, the guy is a genius; that being said:

1) While I am really not a fan of Music Tribe, I would doubt there is much of a discernible difference in DAC quality between the M32 and the Hedd Quantum, especially on most PA's. In my experience when I have grabbed tracks from my live work and brought them back to a high-end monitoring setup, the console DAC/preamp on the front end has not been noticeable; I can sure hear the player, the instrument, the mic used, the mic position, and the acoustical space though! Between A&H QU Preamps and DiGiCo's 32-Bit Stadius preamps, I haven't noticed a difference when working on tracks! We recently got some Neve preamps at work. We double patched the channels to the DiGiCo and the Neve, once we gain matched them, we couldn't pick out which was which, either on D&B PA or Amphion monitoring rig setup for broadcast. We sent them back.

2) Dave Hills products are not usually inexpensive; is this the best ROI for your rig and system? If you are looking at a DAC might I be guessing you don't have a digital DSP for array processing? If so that can offer many noticeable advantages, especially if you have 1:1 box resolution (frequency shading, low-mid beam steering, subwoofer arrays etc); the Meyer Sound Galileo Galaxy is the most flexible one I have found, and I am starting to see it go out with non-Meyer rigs (looking at you L'Acoustics!).

3) If some distortion or "warmth" is what you are after, perhaps a Waves rig might be a good investment? It would add a lot of useful tools such as having dynamic EQ and Dessers available on each channel, (I have found the X32/M32 Desser doesn't do too much); both the NLS and Scheps Omni Channel plugs offer some nice saturation options. Personally for mixing live, I often prefer saturation to be on the source or group side, rather than the outputs. On some sources or groups it gives things the tonality I am after, but rarely do I want that across the whole mix (talking heads? Video playback? iTunes? etc etc etc), unless it is extremely subtle; but if it is extremely subtle it probably is not the best use of funds. :cool:

4) Depending on how your PA is driven this could cause issues. Many setups for example send L, R, FF, and Sub. If you put this device across the L/R you will have introduced a timing/phase problem, and now you would have tonal variance between FF vs mains, additionally you have probably moved the acoustic crossover frequency between your subs and mains. I would strongly recommend against all of that. :)

Things being in phase and how the systems-engineer tuned and intended it to work, almost always sounds far better than the addition of any plugin or piece of hardware. If your system DSP breaks out from L/R to your various sub systems than this could work, but if it doesn't you will be causing a headache for yourself, any visiting BE's, and whoever takes over down the road. If in doubt, you can use SMAART to create a transfer function between your PA L/Sub send, and real-time this can let you know if you have latency problem!

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Bottom line: I feel like you could probably spend the money elsewhere on something that would make a bigger difference to your audience. Invest in some nicer mics, higher end DI's etc. I like to put my purchases through the lens of:

1: Will it make a difference to the audience and player experience or just me?
2: When I have moved onto another gig, is someone reasonable going to love what I got? Or will they question my sanity? ;) I have been on both sides of that equation, I have come into some cool tools and well designed/creative setups, and learned new things from them; other times I have been royally pissed at what someone before me spent money on!

At the end of the day, there are some tools that I simply enjoy using, so I own them personally and bring them out when I want to. Not all gigs provide Neumanns, so I try to make sure I have some on me! :)

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Also I know you probably already no most of this, I am just covering the bases!

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Out of curiosity I would love to know more about your venue and rig?
 
OP
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Scrappy

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You make a lot of good points. This would be a loaned item, so improvement/$ doesn’t matter... ha. Mostly seeing if this device can add another “5%” or however you want to “quantify” it.

“Better” DAC is probably imperceptible. I see demands for tons of 32bit DiGiCo cards and chuckle. “Extra 8 bits, huh? Are you gonna have the venue keep HVAC off so you can hear that?”

The PA is analog from console to drive rack as it’s usually LRSFF, and M32 has only one AES out. All Lake devices for amps and crossover. The system was tuned by some serious heavyweights; it’s implemented as well as can be for now (will have new/ more tuning options soon). I have the means to measure latency on the HEDD, would add that time to sub/ ff. It’s a rather low crossover point, I wonder if Triode would come close. Can always run flown subs L/R so it’s the same source. Could also sum LR to fills (these are all pre-made settings in the controller). Tho I think as subtle as I’d want to run it, it’d be Ok.

I pitched the HEDD or a nice buss compressor as an item to add to the rig, and got the same response of “well the visiting engineers..” which is absolutely correct.

May well be better to strap across busses, especially if DAC is a non-improvement.

I guess part of this over-thought idea (ha!) is to make the PA sound louder at the spl limit.

Anyways, will update if I end up trying it out. Hey, there’s always the bypass button!
 

Matthias McCready

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I mean give it a shot I will admit I was also tempted to buy a HEDD Quantum for this exact purpose some years ago.

I still think Waves would probably give you exactly what you are looking for and some more options and tools to boot. They have some good and natural sounding saturation these days, I use Omni and NLS across almost all of my instrument channels, for the way I use it is subtle but it really adds. For saturation I would still slightly prefer KUSH plugins, but at the end of day I am, "still the idiot stuck in room with a live drummer," so with latency considerations, Waves it is!

Also for what it is worth another area Waves could really help you, is having F6 running. Any of the individual bands can side-chained, and you can have up to 8 plugins in a rack, each with its own side-chain! Some clever side-chaining can really help with masking and hitting a dB limit. For example if the lead vocal comes in those frequencies could drop a few dB in the guitars for example. When done right this is not as much as heard, as felt "wow the vocals feels clearer." All while the guitar feels about the same.

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Also I KNOW you know this, but I will say it anyways! ;) (just in case)

Mix tonality is all about SPL. If you have an incredible mix at 80dBA, you know the kind where people are walking up to FOH and handing you bags of cash, and you take that same mix and push the fader up to 100dBA you will figuratively tear everyone's heads off with the "harshness." Same thing if your 100dBA mix is making people weep tears of joy, bring it back to 90dBA and it will sound overly muddy.

The louder I am mixing (granted 96dBA Slow Peak is about as loud as I go) the more I cultivate what mids and HF I am allowing through, especially 2-4k,

So if you want things to "feel" louder a little emphasis in the "harsh" frequencies might be helpful. This another area where having dynamic EQ available is quite helpful, rather than carving out a vocal (as is needed for some people/mic combinations) you can do far less EQ and have the dynamic EQ pop in when they push too far.

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Waves is no replacement for a rubbish PA, a poorly deployed PA, or for a bad mix (good mixes start with gain and faders), however if you have everything else right, it definitely can make things 5-10% better. For your situation I think it would be extremely advantageous. The only problem with adding that to your M32 setup is that it eats up your only card slot. So for multi-track playback the switching would need to take place in your computer, rather than on the console.
 
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Scrappy

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I’ve never mixed on a rig with Waves tbh. I probably cannot borrow one neither.. If I was touring with a band, I’d dig right in and get plugins set. I love sidechain solutions; I have a complicated scheme for controlling vox FX “density” via DCA on my regular band’s X32 rack. Might explain in another post.

Well Fletcher-Munson and so on. Also, bullskit bar gigs where you’re fighting masking from loud bar conversations.

I did have a fantastic 80dBA mix back in June. No one handed me cash tho, ha. But, acoustic Celtic(-ish) bands, outdoors with decent enough gear, was way fun.
 

ThatSoundsGood

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Dude, how about something with tubes? I've seen the amount of outboard gear there and it's crazy. Our for guy is using a lot of tubes and it really sounds amazing. He knows how to use gentle, slow attack compression to get the RMS up without punishing the listener. Maybe a Tube Tech Comp on the master bus.
Our guy is using this comp and it really is amazing:
Here's an interview with him talking about it.
 
OP
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Scrappy

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Sorta update: did not mix FOH Sat, just fine by me as it was a couple dodgy tribute acts. MON is a breeze ha. Dunno if FOH mixer was goin for the strategy of “harsh” frequencies to seem “loud,” but he did...

Gonna try the HEDD one of these gigs. Also gets me thinking about other 1ru devices. Don’t usually mix into buss compressor live, but have Smart C2. Did see a Cranesong Trakker for a single channel; do like excellent compression for lead vox. Also API 4ch preamp for “priority” channels. Sticking with 2ru of gear for now, shan’t get greedy... ha
 
OP
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Scrappy

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Dude, how about something with tubes? I've seen the amount of outboard gear there and it's crazy. Our for guy is using a lot of tubes and it really sounds amazing. He knows how to use gentle, slow attack compression to get the RMS up without punishing the listener. Maybe a Tube Tech Comp on the master bus.
Our guy is using this comp and it really is amazing:
Here's an interview with him talking about it.
Dictator looks sweet!

Hmmm very good point. Plenty of gear collecting dust; I may as well “field test” em. Now I’m keen to go 2x Vari-Mu for LRSFF, with sidechains via matrices.... Ha!

Eeaasey, bit by bit, ha!


Edit/ adds: I’m all about “slow-lim,” high-ish ratio but slow attack to grab and add “bite.” I’d think the gentle nature of tube comp would kill for that. Always a fan of distressors, especially the Brit mods. That’s in cheap pleniful chip world too. —fun fact: ELI grinds the labels on the IC’s to make it harder to duplicate. Allegedly we had one non-ground; was my white whale for a bit haha
 
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