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Could an "evidence based" HiFi retailer ever be commercially viable?

MattHooper

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Strange isn't, how people differ. If I can't screw it into a 19" rack, I won't buy it. All my non rack-mount kit like the SBT are on a 19" rack shelf.

I really don't want to have stuff on shelves if it can be screwed into a rack.

S.

Curious: why do you feel compelled to have equipment that must be screwed in to a rack?

Do you lug it around different places? Take it on the road? Live in an area with earthquakes? Or is it 100 percent you just like pro gear aesthetics?

I also find myself differing with many of my fellow audiophiles over just seeing lots of gear in general. I don't like a busy-looking room for relaxing and listening. All my source gear/amplification is in a different room, leaving only the speakers in the listening room. Meanwhile many audiophiles seem to want to see every single bit of technology they paid for front and center when they are listening to music - typified by the racks loaded with gear between the speakers look. I even find bare speaker drivers distracting, but many get a kick out of seeing every speaker driver, part of the gear lust I guess.
 

RayDunzl

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Let's see...

How would my local Audio Retailers fare?

Speakers - 22 years old
Amps/Preamp - 15 years old but bought used about nine years ago. Previous amp in 1992 or so.
Cables - basically none, or call it $50
DAC - 7 years ago
CD Player - 4 years ago - to replace one 17 years old
A little miscellaneous stuff.

It's not like a retailer would really have a whole lot of return traffic, if his customers are anything like me.

"Hey dude! You're back!"
"Yeah, just lookin'..."


Then there's the problem of stocking what I suddenly want when I finally want it.

Seems like you'd sell a few things to a few locals, and then you're the Maytag Repairman.
 
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restorer-john

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I also find myself differing with many of my fellow audiophiles over just seeing lots of gear in general. I don't like a busy-looking room for relaxing and listening. All my source gear/amplification is in a different room, leaving only the speakers in the listening room. Meanwhile many audiophiles seem to want to see every single bit of technology they paid for front and center when they are listening to music - typified by the racks loaded with gear between the speakers look. I even find bare speaker drivers distracting, but many get a kick out of seeing every speaker driver, part of the gear lust I guess.

I like it both ways. Sometimes the gear all hanging out, sometimes just the one pair of speakers (with their grilles attached) and the gear hidden away.

Right now, it's lots of gear out. 22 pairs of speakers, 9 amplifiers, a few turntable and 7 CD players. But it's about time to go all minimalist again. :)
 

Doodski

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I like it both ways. Sometimes the gear all hanging out, sometimes just the one pair of speakers (with their grilles attached) and the gear hidden away.

Right now, it's lots of gear out. 22 pairs of speakers, 9 amplifiers, a few turntable and 7 CD players. But it's about time to go all minimalist again. :)
I love a good sound room full of gear!
 

egellings

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I have to admit, I'm not a suit & tie type; I a doer, jeans, tee shirt & all..
 

Doodski

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I'm not a suit & tie type; I a doer
Straight commission sales people create jobs, create a position where nothing existed before and I have respect for them for that reason. :D It's tougher than it looks and that's why there is such a high failure rate. One needs to like people to do it and be successful. The interaction is very intense.
 

egellings

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Maybe the rack gives your equipment group that tower of power look.
 

RayDunzl

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I'm not a good liar, so, I've never been interested in pursuing a career in Sales.
 

Doodski

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I'm not a good liar, so, I've never been interested in pursuing a career in Sales.
It's not for everybody. I've seen many good nice people go through the wringer of sales and get tossed out like yesterdays garbage. It's tough. :D
 

restorer-john

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I'm not a good liar, so, I've never been interested in pursuing a career in Sales.

I've never had to lie to secure a sale. Right from day dot. It was a choice I made. Never once lied in HiFi sales- plenty of salesmen did it as a matter of course.

Even in our most recent business selling/developing and building house and land/investment properties. If you never lie and always treat people well, nothing ever comes back to bite you in the #ss. The few businesses I worked in where I didn't like the ethos, I walked.
 

Duke

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I'm not a good liar, so, I've never been interested in pursuing a career in Sales.

IF you can pick and choose what you sell then you never have to lie, and you never have to consider "margin" when deciding what to sell. That's one of the advantages of being a little home-based high-end dealer.

And I am absolutely sure there are dealerships much bigger than mine which only carry products they genuinely believe in, with margin not even being a consideration.

I've never had to lie to secure a sale. Right from day dot.

Me neither.

And part of being confident in what you sell is not being afraid to let people know when a product you don't carry would serve them well, and sometimes clearly better than what you do carry. I'm mostly a speaker guy, and have highly recommended Dutch & Dutch, GedLee, Pi Speakers, Gradient, Magnepan, Amphion, Classic Audio, Revel, Quad, Seaton Sound, Spatial, Alsyvox, Pioneer, Salk, Supravox, JBL, Omega, Avantgarde, Rythmik, and Funk, among others, depending on the situation.
 
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Doodski

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IF you can pick and choose what you sell then you never have to lie, and you never have to consider "margin" when deciding what to sell. That's one of the advantages of being a little home-based high-end dealer.

And I am absolutely sure there are dealerships much bigger than mine which only carry products they genuinely believe in, with margin not even being a consideration.



Me neither.

And part of being confident in what you sell is not being afraid to let people know when a product you don't carry would serve them well, and sometimes clearly better than what you do carry. I'm mostly a speaker guy, and have highly recommended Dutch & Dutch, GedLee, Pi Speakers, Gradient, Magnepan, Amphion, Classic Audio, Revel, Quad, Alsyvox, Pioneer, Salk, Supravox, JBL, Omega, Avantgarde, Rythmik, and Funk, among others, depending on the situation.
Nice "Swarm" subwoofer system. :D I imagine a swarm of those bad boys sounds and thumps pretty good. :D
http://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html
 

Duke

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Nice "Swarm" subwoofer system. :D I imagine a swarm of those bad boys sounds and thumps pretty good. :D
http://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html

Thank you! Credit for any success the Swarm enjoys goes to Earl Geddes, whose ideas I use with his permission.

Note that a "Swarm" of Rhythmiks or Funks or Seaton Submersives beats (or even slaughters) my little Swarm. Not to mention what a hard-core DIYer could do for considerably less money.
 
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Sal1950

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sergeauckland

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Straight commission sales people create jobs, create a position where nothing existed before and I have respect for them for that reason. :D It's tougher than it looks and that's why there is such a high failure rate. One needs to like people to do it and be successful. The interaction is very intense.
On the other hand, commission sales means the salesperson has a conflict of interest between their own income and what's best for the customer.

As to liking people, that, or total contempt.

S
 

Doodski

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That hit's the nail on the head.
Some of the best of the best salespeople I've worked with are the best schmoozers and they really mean it. :D I mean really schmoozy peeps. People that get things done and the doo-ers smile when it's happening. I've been a doo-er for a couple of good schmoozers and we where a wicked team.
 

Tks

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And is being replaced with what? The 21st century equivalent of the the door to door salesman? That's what online is. I've never bought a thing through Amazon and probably never will. I personally don't care one iota for what other people think of a product (reviews) and I place great value in the sales process from start to finish.

Not sure of the semblance between door-to-door salesmen and Amazon tbh. As for online shopping, you need to realize at least in cities, that is becoming a sizable form of purchase type. Corona currently is demonstrating how much faster such a thing can proliferate, and how much people actually desire the outcome.

The sorts of notions you hold in this regard reminded me of my father that never wanted a cell phone (I can sympathize why, as he didn't want to be on-call 24/7 from employers, or even just friends at all times of the day, so usually when people would be out for dinner, he didn't expect to have someone expect him to be establishing a communication). Naturally - considering if you're outside, you're not near your home landline for people to be able to bother you anyway.

The thing is though, after his employer provided him a phone by force, he couldn't say no. In the same way shoppers wanting certain items that are disappearing from their vicinity, will need to relent and go the online route. You simply have no choice on the matter, as that is the majority paradigm that's taking over, regardless of your feelings on the matter.

Also quickly.. To the notions of "great value in the sales process", those exist today as well - just not in the form you're in line with. A website/advertisement/customer support is a sales process. Some do it bad, some do it well.

Oh and quickly again, to the idea of not caring what reviewers think. That strikes me as odd, as I've dodged bullets on issues people have pointed out about products, and nuanced reviews that provide objective informational value (something like the sorts of reviews you see here). Granted of course, is the label of most reviews being shovelware. But it is an aggregate of some data that is useful nonetheless in some fashion. To not care at all about them strikes me as peculiar, as if you want to burden yourself with discovering potential things that could be revealed by the experience of others.

Like everything sales related, it goes full circle and has done forever. People go on about uber eats/air tasker and home delivery being "disruptors" when they are absolutely nothing of the sort. My father had the butcher, baker, grocer, gardener etc all deliver or provide services to their home when he was a boy in the 1930/40s. Personalized shopping was the norm. The lady of the house picked up the phone and the butcher turned up at the back door.

Oh okay, so you understand in that case sales still exist, but just in a different form.

As for pickup phone service, that still exists, it's just relegated to higher-end living locales, but since the cost of employing full-time people for such jobs, it's not just being made more business efficient by mega companies specialized in a specific task, in the same way you have DAC parts being made all from pieces from specialized companies that no one single entity can outdo in an exclusive creation of a DAC using completely bespoke design.

As far as "disruptors" that is an idiotic bait term used to lure braindead investors. That word is in my cringe-list like most other terms lately (others include, Big Data, Internet of Things, etc...). Though "dispruptors" is more in the realm of mega cringe like "growth hacking" "actionable insights" and such others.

But yeah, it doesn't make sense for the actual butcher himself to be coming to your back door. This might still pass as I said in non-city areas. But in cities, I'm not sure there's a backdoor, or enough butchers to personally do literally anything.

Retail is cyclic. The death of the mall/high street results in online (the equivalent of catalog in the early 20th century), and soon after, people will tire of the stuff that doesn't fit, doesn't meet standard or doesn't offer something unique and they will search out the places where they get personal service and exclusive product again. The boutiques will open, the specialists will return and the skills in sales and service will be required again.

We are in the lowest cost, least interesting, least personal, lowest standard of customer service part of the cycle.

This may be the case in the era you spoke about, up until the late 60's where society had purchasing power as a whole, rather than relegated to a select few that keep the few retail stores that exist - open. Currently, there will be no return of any of this, in the same way there will be no returning of land-line use, nor returning of expectations of not to be bothered by people at a moments notice (unless of course you want to delineate yourself from norm-thinking). People aren't tired, simply due to the fact that Amazon's growth isn't stagnating, thus signalling an antithesis to your idea. And even if they did get tired, the place Amazon has hoisted itself to, will always be in the position to react and obliterate competition (they've been known to lower prices under MSRP consistently to drive out any hint of competition, even if it means losing money themselves).

The only thing "tiredness" will result in, is another better-Amazon, but there won't be anymore glass bottled milk deliveries in crates I can tell you that much.

On an anecdotal level, the people I know, don't really care THAT much about retail experience, especially if convenience is impeded (the convenience of a few clicks to your door can't be beat by anything I know currently). Most folks simply care about products working as advertised, and having some post-sale customer support if anything goes wrong. Everything is is virtually inconsequential.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing I have to finish off on, is it's not my intent to vilify or say store-fronts are bad. The only thing that makes them "bad" is what business has demonstrated to be inefficiency. And in business, efficiency is everything for the majority of things (which is why I ignore luxury sectors, since at the dollars they're concerned with, inefficiency is anything that loses clientele, anything aside from that is virtually inconsequential due to the vast sums of money thrown at any losses of inefficiency).

When companies like Amazon, Starbucks, etc.. are offering landlords vast sums of money for locations, anything that isn't raking in a lot of money from sales, is going to get chewed to pieces and spit out to the edges of society (outskirts where having a local butcher may still make some sense).

Lastly, the reason I said in my original post about physical retail "needing to die off" is the same reason the notion that every person "needs" to own one of everything, like a house, a car, a boat - would also be things that "need to die off". When you look at the issues with resources and things of that nature. All notions of property ownership need to get abandoned (just the ecological hit of the idea of providing every single living person a house and a car is insanity). This stuff can't go on, simply because there are either more pressing, or smarter ways of using our resources to achieve the same result. Like if for instance you lived in one of those smart-cities that are being pioneered by some Arabian nations in prototype testing - what sense does it make to have cars, if at any time you can summon a car to pick you up and drive you to your destination, traffic free. Or the idea of even "driving" a car in the first place if the car can drive itself and cut down on accidents to a degree, where speeding limits would evaporate as they would be useless in a fully integrated system in a few decades of development?

That is why I say these things "need" to die off. Not because I don't like them, but because the purposes they serve is just a bit self-serving of nostalgia of a way of life that was quaint, but all can see that way of life can't ever really come back, and for good reason. And certainly not in any meaningful majority.
 

Doodski

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On the other hand, commission sales means the salesperson has a conflict of interest between their own income and what's best for the customer.

As to liking people, that, or total contempt.

S
There's a conflict with all people that have a investment in their occupation and earn from their toil. Commissioned sales people have more investment and are more committed. Yes, there are some scummy peeps out there but most of them mean well and want to do good and earn from that. Good salespeople create a following of both their peers and the clients. It's impossible to have a long term following of peeps and clients and not f*** it up. Commission earnings require a lot of faith in oneself and in the long term.
 

Doodski

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he didn't want to be on-call 24/7 from employers, or even just friends at all times of the day, so usually when people would be out for dinner, he didn't expect to have someone expect him to be establishing a communication
Oh man! I was a roofing inspector and insurance estimator (which I enjoyed) and the people that would call me after hours.... sigh. I left the company cel tel on. Most where really good but there was a couple of peeps that treated me like low-life slave. My friends told me to tell them top f*** off... literally.
 

sergeauckland

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Curious: why do you feel compelled to have equipment that must be screwed in to a rack?

Do you lug it around different places? Take it on the road? Live in an area with earthquakes? Or is it 100 percent you just like pro gear aesthetics?

I also find myself differing with many of my fellow audiophiles over just seeing lots of gear in general. I don't like a busy-looking room for relaxing and listening. All my source gear/amplification is in a different room, leaving only the speakers in the listening room. Meanwhile many audiophiles seem to want to see every single bit of technology they paid for front and center when they are listening to music - typified by the racks loaded with gear between the speakers look. I even find bare speaker drivers distracting, but many get a kick out of seeing every speaker driver, part of the gear lust I guess.
It's not a compulsion, it's more that my equipment is a permanent installation, so doesn't get moved around, and a 19" rack is the most convenient way to house everything, with all the cabling except 'speaker cables hidden. The racks are to one side, not between the 'speakers, and the 'speakers have grilles on so I don't have to look at the drivers.

The racks are on castors, so I can move them out for rear access the few times I need to get in there for any reason. It's a fit and forget type installation. A separate 'machine room' would be even better, but I don't have that luxury.

S
 
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