Cost of DIY

[eddantes]

Hello all,

There have been a few threads asking about cost of DIY vs buying 2nd hand. As always my recomendation is - if you want HiFi on the cheap, but the best bang for the buck commercial offerings 2nd hand - it is a no contest. DIY is for the joy of doing it yourself, costs be damned.

So I wanted to present here an estimate for a project I am considering - a two way with a big woofer to try to cover as much of the FR as possible while keeping directivity from being completely out of whack. This is me being my maximum frugal - using the cheapest components I can find (eg. electrolytic caps), buying on sale (woofers) and second hand (tweeters) - and this is what the budget entails.

As you can see - hardly a bargain. Now let's see what can be bought for CAD $700 -$900 second hand. Not linking here, as I don't want to be promoting, but presented here as a table - if you know where to look you can confirm my findings. I will try to list only examples of speakers we know to be good performers from measurements (so - no exotica or crap).

Obviously this is in Canada and the above is not considered in terms of bargain / rip off - just what is readily availlable.

Of those I found. Polk R200 is likely the closest in concept. Here are some specs of it: (F3

And here is what I have conceptualized:

Theoretically - Mine will go deeper but have less linearity and a worse DI. But going deeper is the whole point with these.

So there you have it folks - DIY - for shits n giggles; 2nd hand for bang for the buck.

 

[ryanosaur]

From a cost benefit perspective, DIY Subs where you can share a multichannel amp to power 4 DIY subs starts to make sense against purchasing Subs…

But you are spot on. It’s not a proposition of savings, especially if you bill for your own time!

 

[Gibsonian]

Typically I find I have advantage and disadvantage in diy

Advantage: Higher quality cabinets, drivers, components Satisfaction if end result good.

Disadvantage: Lower quality finish (no veneer, etc. kind of planned)

Bunch of work

Minimal test equipment

Not enough trials to fine tune crossover

 

[a4eaudio]

...Theoretically - Mine will go deeper but have less linearity and a worse DI. But going deeper is the whole point with these.

So there you have it folks - DIY - for shits n giggles; 2nd hand for bang for the buck.

Sorry, I don't buy the conclusion. Your speaker should be as good or better than the 2nd hand commercial speakers you listed and your price came out less. Less money for the same or better quality seems like MORE bang for the buck the way I define it.

You should be able to build a better cabinet than any of those commercial speakers. If you are using veneer and Tung oil you should have a better finish than any of those speakers. The three with small woofers (KEF, KEF and Monitor) will easily be beat in low-frequency extension by your woofer, which is something like 30% of preference ratings. Your drivers are at least as good as those in the Polk. The Wharfedale one seems like the one that is tough to beat.

 

[a4eaudio]

...But you are spot on. It’s not a proposition of savings, especially if you bill for your own time!

Yes, someone always says this, but it is not the right interpretation of Opportunity Cost unless the person is actually taking unpaid time off work to build the speaker. Opportunity Cost is the "next best alternative" to your time, which for most speaker building means you give up some TV watching to build a speaker.

 

[a4eaudio]

...And here is what I have conceptualized:

I know the thread was about the cost, but I wanted to comment on your proposed simulation.

With the waveguided tweeter, you should be able to get smoother DI, PIR and/or Sound Power. A tip for using the VituixCAD Optimizer...
Start with your conceptualized crossover and run the Optimizer with 3 scenarios and save each of the variations.

• Listening window, weight 100%, set a target slope of your choice
• PIR, weight 100%, set a target slope of your choice
• Sound Power 100%, set a target slope of your choice

You won't want to necessarily use one of these three crossovers, but you can see what crossover components give you smoother LW vs PIR vs Sound Power compared to your own simulation. Then you can mix and match a bit to get something to your liking.

 

[CD2]

More advantages of DIY:
-- gain skills and experience.
-- gain a better understanding of how stuff works.
-- every project is an excuse to buy new cool tools!
Additional drawback:
-- DIY gear has no resale value.

Anyway, strong agreement with the OP. I like making stuff. But after some early dabbling I've always bought used audio because it's a massive bargain.

 

[eddantes]

I know the thread was about the cost, but I wanted to comment on your proposed simulation.

With the waveguided tweeter, you should be able to get smoother DI, PIR and/or Sound Power. A tip for using the VituixCAD Optimizer...
Start with your conceptualized crossover and run the Optimizer with 3 scenarios and save each of the variations.

• Listening window, weight 100%, set a target slope of your choice
• PIR, weight 100%, set a target slope of your choice
• Sound Power 100%, set a target slope of your choice

You won't want to necessarily use one of these three crossovers, but you can see what crossover components give you smoother LW vs PIR vs Sound Power compared to your own simulation. Then you can mix and match a bit to get something to your liking.

Thanks kindly for the reply. This is largely my approach. I get as close as I can - and then run the Optimizer to see if I missed anything. On this speaker - the woofer has a dip in its published response that made me push the crossover lower which ruined the DI. See below.

SB17NBAC35-8 may be a better driver for this for an extra 20 per driver (over the sale price of the original) as its dip in that spot is less visible, but I was going for max low extention. I think the combo with the ceramic version is likely the best one, but non are available at Solen right now and they are much costlier.

 

[melomane13]

DIY is only truly worthwhile when you’re creating something that doesn’t exist commercially.
I mean something custom-made — like bass enclosures with a specific size and/or shape, calibrated for the room and, of course, matched to the main speakers.

For “classic” loudspeakers, unless you have all the necessary tools to do really proper woodworking, know how to use them, and follow a solid design from a recognized manufacturer — for example Visaton, which also provides advanced box simulation software like Boxsim — it’s a waste of time and money.

For electronics, same story. There’s no real point in building an amplifier or a DAC considering what you can already buy ready-made.

That said, I do have two DIY projects:
– a DSP streamer crossover (CamillaDSP) with a Bluetooth remote control and display, which has no commercial equivalent in fonctionnality.
– and two bass enclosures (not subwoofers) that operate below 300 Hz to support my beloved JBL Studio 530, with crossover handled by the DSP streamer using FIR filtering...

 

[a4eaudio]

DIY is only truly worthwhile when you’re creating something that doesn’t exist commercially.
..For “classic” loudspeakers,... — it’s a waste of time and money.

LOL, lots of opinion stated as fact.

 

[eddantes]

follow a solid design from a recognized manufacturer

To be honest - the principal reason why I am doing this is specifically NOT to follow a design. Kits are fun, but trying to build something from scratch - to realize a vision - that's where the fun really lies. And also - I'm not one to say I have golden ears, but if my measurements show that I am close to my design goals - that's more satisfying than buying some speaker that objectively is superior, but subjectively I can't really tell.

 

[Gibsonian]

LOL, lots of opinion stated as fact.

For sure. DIY is what you want to make it from a sloppy garage speaker from spare parts to state of the art work of art. All good and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder as is with all things.

 

[JohnnyNG]

DIY is only truly worthwhile when you’re creating something that doesn’t exist commercially.
I mean something custom-made — like bass enclosures with a specific size and/or shape

This is what drove me.

 

[melomane13]

LOL, lots of opinion stated as fact.

I’m not a native English speaker, so maybe the tone didn’t come across as intended.
It’s simply my personal view, shaped by my experience — as I assume yours is shaped by yours.
That’s the whole point of a forum discussion.

 

[Wolf11Man]

As a first, DIYS is only cost saving if you go for high quality components. Second, the value of the result depends on your skills and tools available.

If you would like to buy some high end two-way for more than 2000$ a pair, you can match the audible result for something of maybe 400-500$ in DIYS.

Building a speaker from some 50$ surplus drivers is only a hobby, but you will not even match a 300$ commercial offer.

 

[ivayvr]

As far as I am concerned, it only makes sense if you have a reliable cutting service at reasonable price. I don't think that you can even try to make a decent cabinet using hobby tools. I made 4-5 pairs so far, all of them using KEF T27/B110, KEF B200/T33 and KEF 2XB110/T52 units. They were commercial designs and the only tricky part was making the cabinets. As the units used indicate, that was some 40 years ago. Putting the veneer on also was a bit of a challenge.

 

[eddantes]

As a first, DIYS is only cost saving if you go for high quality components. Second, the value of the result depends on your skills and tools available.

If you would like to buy some high end two-way for more than 2000$ a pair, you can match the audible result for something of maybe 400-500$ in DIYS.

Building a speaker from some 50$ surplus drivers is only a hobby, but you will not even match a 300$ commercial offer.

Because quality in speakers is strongly correlated with price? I dunno about that. We can agree to disagree, and I'll remain openminded as I try more expensive drivers.

 

[a4eaudio]

As a first, DIYS is only cost saving if you go for high quality components.

I've never seen any evidence to support this.

Second, the value of the result depends on your skills and tools available.

Of course.

...I don't think that you can even try to make a decent cabinet using hobby tools....

What are hobby tools, scissors and a chisel? You do need a circular saw (or hand saw) a router, a drill, a screwdriver, and probably some clamps.

 

[TurtlePaul]

I would say that the value of DIY speakers tends to scale with shipping costs. Making a 2-way bookshelf can be hard to justify. But if you have the ability and either enjoy making speakers or give a low hourly value to your time, it can be worthwhile to make large floorstanders DIY (e.g. 2 x 8" or 3 x 6") vs commercial designs which cost many thousands in those sized.

 

[a4eaudio]

I would say that the value of DIY speakers tends to scale with shipping costs. Making a 2-way bookshelf can be hard to justify.

At least in the US this is insignificant...Shipping is free from Parts Express for orders over $100 and free at Madisound for orders over $150. I just ordered three cheap (18 euros each) tweeters from https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/ (Paris France to Michigan) and got them in six days for for what was less than the comparable tweeter in the US.

It is true that cabinet costs tend to scale (at least to some degree) if you don't tend to do other woodworking. If you have to buy a bottle of wood glue and you use only 1/4 of the bottle, and a full sheet of MDF/wood and only use half the sheet then the 2-way bookshelf is going to be relatively more expensive than a larger tower. But this has been addressed in other places - if you don't have the tools or desire to do woodworking, then a DIY speaker is an absolutely horrible value proposition.

.... or give a low hourly value to your time

oh brother, people really cannot stop repeating this it seems
It doesn't matter how YOU value your time. I value my time at $1 million an hour, unfortunately no one else does. How does the market value your time (i.e., look at your paycheck) and are you taking time off of paid work to build speakers? I know a lot of people that build speakers and I don't know any of them that take off work, unpaid, to build their speakers.