Cost no object dac/streamer

[MZKM]

Whether the dCS DACs measure better than a Topping D50, I cannot say.

Stereophile measurements of their $35,000 DAC.

Very excellent (except Filter 4); but it’s barely better than the DAC3 in some instances, and barely worse in others (Stereophile’s DAC3 measurements, for a more direct comparison over Amir’s measurements). So, I would not recommend it as it’s almost 20x the price the DAC3 B model, and 140x the SMSL SU-8.

For a dedicated Hi-Fi streamer, Salk’s StreamPlayer lineup is supposed to be good.

 

[DonH56]

^^^ I was going to mention Jim Salk's streamers... I've been eyeing one for a few years, and had a few email "talks" with Jim about it. Just haven't gotten around to it as (a) my SONOS:Connect is doing OK for me, (b) it's a lot more money, and (c) I keep thinking I'll get some spare time to try a Raspberry Pi version instead. The DIY RPi is appealing if I ever manage to get a life outside work...

 

[tourneychamp23]

Cost no object, you asked for it:
dCS Bartok
If cost is really no object, the next dCs's up the line: Rossini or Vivaldi
Jokes aside, the Bartok is absolutely exceptional for its (admittedly not insignificant) price level. If you are considering a streamer for say 2'000 USD and a DAC for say 5'000 USD, I would move up to the dCS and be done for the next 20 years.
My friend's 20 year old dCS Delius / Purcell holds its own against today's best DACs (no streaming, no MQA, no DSD of course). Not the worst of investments.

It's funny that you mentioned this dac. It is actually one that I was considering. I've been trying to find somewhere to hear it. However, if it measures pretty similar to the benchmark isn't the sound going to be close?

 

[MZKM]

However, if it measures pretty similar to the benchmark isn't the sound going to be close

Yes, so it’s a waste of a lot of money. Benchmark has its name for a reason. Focus on the streamer for the features you want and just make sure it has digital outputs.

Use some of the savings from not getting the dCS and put it into room treatment, a properly treated room using a $50 DAC will sound better than an untreated room with the world’s best DAC

 

[Frank Dernie]

Linn Klimax DS.

When I retired I decided to go a bit upmarket for streaming.
I evaluated a range of solutions.
The Linn Klimax was the most expensive. It was the best made and one of the nicest looking but on carefully level matched sound quality comparisons was indistinguishable on the sort of music I listen to to the others. It also crashed from time to time.

 

[tourneychamp23]

Yes, so it’s a waste of a lot of money. Benchmark has its name for a reason. Focus on the streamer for the features you want and just make sure it has digital outputs.

Use some of the savings from not getting the dCS and put it into room treatment, a properly treated room using a $50 DAC will sound better than an untreated room with the world’s best DAC

What about streaming though?

 

[Frank Dernie]

What's the consensus on here for a totl dac streamer? Looking for something for my new system that measures well. That doesn't mean is has to cost uber money. Totl performance can be had for much less it seams. I'm looking for the price point.

I think there is little, if anything, sound quality wise, from a dedicated streamer over a DAC and computer.
Maybe something looking nicer, maybe something with a user interface you prefer, maybe less fan noise but that is all, based on the measurements I have seen.
The most impressive streamer I heard was a Raspberry Pi based DIY affair at a Scalford show a few years ago. Big fancy expensive boxes are not necessary for a state of the art digital source IME.

 

[jacobacci]

Yes, so it’s a waste of a lot of money

I am sure you have extensively listened to the Bartok and compared it with the Benchmark to be so sure. After all this is the audiosciencereview forum.


I am an engineer so the "scientific" bit of this forum is something that I appreciate a lot. I am also fascinated what level of audio performance is possible today at very reasonable cost. I have a Chord Mojo for portable use that I am very happy with.
However measurements are not everything. We are only able to measure certain parameters and measuring instruments have limited resolution. Claiming that every device that measures the same sounds the same is as wrong as dismissing measurements and seeking justifications why a device that measures badly "sounds good".
Having said that, my purchase of a dCS DAC was preceded by four lengthy single blind listening sessions with two friends. In the given circumstances (system, room etc.) there were significant differences in the sound of the different DACs. We did not listen to the Benchmark DAC3, so I cannot say how it would have compared. But for me, the dCS Rossini was the DAC that most gave me the impression of being in a live concert and hearing music and not hifi. It achieved this both with PCM and DSD material. Some of the comparatives were equally good with either PCM or DSD but not the other. The dCS was the best across both formats.
The Bartok is half the cost of the Rossini, 4-5x the cost of the Benchmark (not 20x). It has a roon ready streamer, is MQA capable, future proof through firmware upgrades and I would expect a useful life >10, probably 20 years. Everyone must decide for themselves whether it is worth the money - and not everyone will come to the same conclusion.
BTW I do not disagree with MZKM that room treatment is probably the single biggest return per Dollar invested in an audio system. But the question here was about DAC / streamers, not room treatment.

 

[sergeauckland]

I think there is little, if anything, sound quality wise, from a dedicated streamer over a DAC and computer.
Maybe something looking nicer, maybe something with a user interface you prefer, maybe less fan noise but that is all, based on the measurements I have seen.
The most impressive streamer I heard was a Raspberry Pi based DIY affair at a Scalford show a few years ago. Big fancy expensive boxes are not necessary for a state of the art digital source IME.

This is exactly why I use a Squeezebox Touch, with its internal DAC. The measurements are as good as they need to be, and they just work. Not that I use it much, but I'm also happy with the CD player's internal DAC.

S

 

[Sal1950]

All I can tell you is that the dCS DACs sound very different (and to my ears more musical and less fatiguing) than anything else I have heard.

Have you tested these beliefs under bias controlled blind listening conditions?
I think you would find that either the differences disappear, or some of them have easily measured departures from accuracy.

 

[jacobacci]

Have you tested these beliefs under bias controlled blind listening conditions?

Is this a requirement for being allowed to make my explicitly subjective statement you quoted?

 

[bunkbail]

When I retired I decided to go a bit upmarket for streaming.
I evaluated a range of solutions.
The Linn Klimax was the most expensive. It was the best made and one of the nicest looking but on carefully level matched sound quality comparisons was indistinguishable on the sort of music I listen to to the others. It also crashed from time to time.

The latest revisions of DS with Katalyst DAC sounds pretty great.

 

[tourneychamp23]

I think there is little, if anything, sound quality wise, from a dedicated streamer over a DAC and computer.
Maybe something looking nicer, maybe something with a user interface you prefer, maybe less fan noise but that is all, based on the measurements I have seen.
The most impressive streamer I heard was a Raspberry Pi based DIY affair at a Scalford show a few years ago. Big fancy expensive boxes are not necessary for a state of the art digital source IME.

Just to clarify you're saying an aurrender for example doesn't have any sonic advantages?

 

[MZKM]

However measurements are not everything. We are only able to measure certain parameters and measuring instruments have limited resolution. Claiming that every device that measures the same sounds the same is as wrong as dismissing measurements and seeking justifications why a device that measures badly "sounds good".

Measurement gear has far more “resolution” and is far more consistent and reliable than our own hearing. Also, if all measurements show them being similar, then they will sound similar, but I will agree that the full suite of measurements are not usually done, and conclusive statements can’t be drawn from limited data.

4-5x the cost of the Benchmark (not 20x)

I am comparing the dCS Vivaldi DAC, which was $34,000 at the time Stereophile reviewed/measured it, currently $36,000, to the Benchmark DAC3 B, which is currently $1695, so in fact, it is >21x the cost. As per Stereophile’s measurements of both, they performed very similarly and both are pristine down past -100dBFS, which will be lower than the noise floor in any room.

What about streaming though?

I gave the Salk StreamPlayer lineup as an example, it’s well reviewed.

 

[tourneychamp23]

Measurement gear has far more “resolution” and is far more consistent and reliable than our own hearing. Also, if all measurements show them being similar, then they will sound similar, but I will agree that the full suite of measurements are not usually done, and conclusive statements can’t be drawn from limited data.



I am comparing the dCS Vivaldi DAC, which was $34,000 at the time Stereophile reviewed/measured it, currently $36,000, to the Benchmark DAC3 B, which is currently $1695, so in fact, it is >21x the cost. As per Stereophile’s measurements of both, they performed very similarly and both are pristine down past -100dBFS, which will be lower than the noise floor in any room.



I gave the Salk StreamPlayer lineup as an example, it’s well reviewed.

Yes, but everything is well reviewed. Why is that better than for example a lumin for mac mini? What are measurement differences in all these different streamers telling us?

 

[MZKM]

Yes, but everything is well reviewed. Why is that better than for example a lumin for mac mini? What are measurement differences in all these different streamers telling us?

Besides jitter, which should not be an issue with any modern, decent DAC, all streamers using digital outputs will sound identical (excluding placebo). I simply gave an option for a dedicated Hi-Fi streamer with some nice features. One can just as easily use a Mac Mini or similar as their source.

 

[tourneychamp23]

Besides jitter, which should not be an issue with any modern, decent DAC, all streamers using digital outputs will sound identical (excluding placebo). I simply gave an option for a dedicated Hi-Fi streamer with some nice features. One can just as easily use a Mac Mini or similar as their source.

Great, I wasn't sure if you were implying sonic differences.

 

[MZKM]

Great, I wasn't sure if you were implying sonic differences.

Yeah, just figure out what features you want and how you wish to be able to control/use it.

 

[Sal1950]

All I can tell you is that the dCS DACs sound very different (and to my ears more musical and less fatiguing) than anything else I have heard

Is this a requirement for being allowed to make my explicitly subjective statement you quoted?

You've stated that they sound VERY different as a matter of fact. So yes, I would expect you to supply some supportable evidence acceptable to a scientific community. Otherwise it's simply guessing.

 

[derp1n]

a dedicated streamer is rumored to ultimately sound better because it's optimized just to play music

Pure fantasy.