Considering moving to Portugal as an ex pat.... input welcome.

[madrac]

Soandso - I agree that they bill that way to CYA from ambulance chasers (lawyers) but there is also a shareholder component added to the cost (insurance companies are in business to be profitable)...wonder if there should be more regulation - e.g. "fixed" ROI similar to what is imposed on utilities (at least where I live) or reasonable settlements in case of litigation (or a higher bar to bring litigation - I recall wasting 3 days in jury selection some time ago -- about midway through the 2nd day, it came out that the plaintiff was suing the association & several individuals over a wedgie at a waterpolo event. The room went beserk, with some potential jurors asking if it was of the "atomic" variety, why the kid was such a pussy, etc.

That said, is it really so the providers can claim a loss or is it the mark up the actual cost of the service - including fair profit - as they know the insurance companies will only pay "X"? Similarly, all the copays & deductibles that the consumer is stuck with is likely another means to maximize profit by the insurance companies, just like denying coverage/claims(even though it was confirmed that the procedure/service/etc. was in fact covered) - this goes not only to health insurance, but home/auto/etc.

Not just the insurance companies, but big pharma as well. I can get similar meds out of the country (e.g. Canada mail order, Mexico, etc.) for like 1/10th the cost. In some places, even w/o a prescription. Pharma, IMO, is just passing their R&D & other costs on to the US consumer (and I'd bet the mail order pharmacy places here are keeping a big chunk of any savings).

In short, the US is the only country in the world, AFAIK, that doesn't have national healthcare. Unfortunately, I don't think our government can handle managing that, either. They'd screw it up just like they've done social security.

 

[Vacceo]

I'm Dutch but I lived in Portugal (Porto) for a year. I can not compare to North America, but here is my impression:

Pro:
- Portuguese are generally kind, calm and extremely welcoming to outsiders and foreigners (If you are from Brazil: YMMV). Even as a somebody who speaks very little portuguese I experienced this.
- Good weather
- Good food and wine
- Generally safe country
- Great nature, beaches, little towns, etc.
Cons:
- There will be some people trying to scam you (as in most places)
- Bureacacy & corruption is getting better but is still stiffling and frustrating, at least from my Northern Europe perspective.. There some horror stories.
- Online shopping is still kind of a new thing, expect 2 weeks to be a normal waiting time for a lot of products..
- This is a country that has not fully embraced capitalism so many businesses will seem extremely inefficient and lethargy. But at least the people helping you will usually be friendly. Opening a bank account took me 3 days of in-person appointments where I had to sign 20 different papers.
- The economy is one with few opportunities unfairly distributed, who you know is extremely important, and therefore there is sometimes a general athmosphere that breathes "land of no oppotunity"
- Healthcare may be free but suffers from the typical problems over very socialized healthcare: waiting lists, overworked doctors, etc

Portuguese mostly do not speak much English so if you want to socialize, either find an expat community with English speakers or learn Portuguese. Bring a translator to your government paperwork visits.

IMO if you can get private healthcare and do not need to find a local job, Portugal is a country the can offer a extremely pleasant and peaceful life.

Keep in mind that Portugal, in the last decade, has seen some deep and drastic changes. They embraced the digital nomad destination and that is one of the reasons for the spike in real estate prices.

It has also increaded the pace of convergente to Western Europe on the areas you mention, thought the traditional "flavor" is still there.

 

[Soandso]

Soandso - I agree that they bill that way to CYA from ambulance chasers (lawyers) but there is also a shareholder component added to the cost (insurance companies are in business to be profitable)...wonder if there should be more regulation - e.g. "fixed" ROI similar to what is imposed on utilities (at least where I live) or reasonable settlements in case of litigation (or a higher bar to bring litigation - I recall wasting 3 days in jury selection some time ago -- about midway through the 2nd day, it came out that the plaintiff was suing the association & several individuals over a wedgie at a waterpolo event. The room went beserk, with some potential jurors asking if it was of the "atomic" variety, why the kid was such a pussy, etc.

That said, is it really so the providers can claim a loss or is it the mark up the actual cost of the service - including fair profit - as they know the insurance companies will only pay "X"? Similarly, all the copays & deductibles that the consumer is stuck with is likely another means to maximize profit by the insurance companies, just like denying coverage/claims(even though it was confirmed that the procedure/service/etc. was in fact covered) - this goes not only to health insurance, but home/auto/etc.

Not just the insurance companies, but big pharma as well. I can get similar meds out of the country (e.g. Canada mail order, Mexico, etc.) for like 1/10th the cost. In some places, even w/o a prescription. Pharma, IMO, is just passing their R&D & other costs on to the US consumer (and I'd bet the mail order pharmacy places here are keeping a big chunk of any savings).

In short, the US is the only country in the world, AFAIK, that doesn't have national healthcare. Unfortunately, I don't think our government can handle managing that, either. They'd screw it up just like they've done social security.

Portugal has what I think can call national health care. Yesterday I looked at their tax brackets, tax rate scaling and who, by the way like residents as well, is subject to Portugal national tax. They were both higher than at the same taxable amounts and increased in scale more frequently than US national taxes.

My observation is that living in Portugal and/or being a Portuguese citizen one is always pre-paying into health care for everyone in Portugal eligible at any time. Whereas in the USA the lower tax that one is subject to always be paying leaves more discretion to the person regarding their own individual health care financial strategy. In the US statistically speaking they keep more of their money to either pre-pay via premiums of health insurance for themselves/family, or not thereby risking liability for medical expenses if and when incurred.

I've been describing how national health care is not "free" even if when accessed there is no out of pocket expenditure(s) and one may or may not have paid out in taxes less than they receive the benefit(s) of. In the US there are some people who do not pay for their medical care and the particulars of who/what/when/where are quite diverse; with a good deal of the differences depends on which US state (or territory) they are residents of. Part of any US state's degree of financial participation seems to be a factor of how much it's state tax(s) is. For example a neighbor of mine gets state financed health care for several serious medical conditions involving extended hospital stays at no expense to him ever. But possibly in another state he'd have had some financial responsibility - but he'd have been pre-paying less residing there through lower taxes. Then too the privately owned very modern hospital in my town has a formal application system for some or all financial relief if you qualify that is properly called an "Appeal to Charity."

Pardon my long text here and above - a lot of it is meant for those who may not know USA health care other than in terms of gross dollar amounts. I am not declaring I know what is good, better or best for people.

 

[madrac]

Prepaying (e.g. higher individual tax rates) for national health care is common in most, if not, all countries with such programs, AFAIK. It would be interesting to know how much extra tax one pays versus what we pay in the US for medical insurance premiums + copays + deductibles, along with the comparable cost of same procedure, to see which is more economical for the individual. Many years ago, a friend of mine who was an expat in Brazil had to have open heart surgery. As I recall, the procedure in the US would have cost 150K, whereas it was 1/3 that in Rio.

Nothing in this world is free. Some countries you even prepay into university (I believe Denmark is one).

 

[lowdef]

Unless I'm misunderstanding Canada's immigration policies (after a lot of research), anything above a 6-month visitor visa is going to be tough. Spouse and I are very comfortably retired (USA), but a path to full-time residency appears to be remote for retirees. Canada is still top of our list (Mexico is second), but need to figure out where to live for the other 6 months.

 

[TSB]

Keep in mind that Portugal, in the last decade, has seen some deep and drastic changes. They embraced the digital nomad destination and that is one of the reasons for the spike in real estate prices.

It has also increaded the pace of convergente to Western Europe on the areas you mention, thought the traditional "flavor" is still there.

I lived there 3 years ago, this information should be pretty up to date. The digital nomad thing is a bit overrated but I lived there as a remote software engineer.

 

[Marc v E]

Prepaying (e.g. higher individual tax rates) for national health care is common in most, if not, all countries with such programs, AFAIK. It would be interesting to know how much extra tax one pays versus what we pay in the US for medical insurance premiums + copays + deductibles, along with the comparable cost of same procedure, to see which is more economical for the individual. Many years ago, a friend of mine who was an expat in Brazil had to have open heart surgery. As I recall, the procedure in the US would have cost 150K, whereas it was 1/3 that in Rio.

Nothing in this world is free. Some countries you even prepay into university (I believe Denmark is one).

this comparison is quite good and thorough afai remember.

 

[Salt]

To be honest: German Healthcare is imploding just now (though expences and insurance contributions are rising), forced by continued influence of those 'who know' (not!) to the, now also imploded, Bundesregierung.

(Don't ask why I know)

 

[napfkuchen]

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the US has the best healthcare. Unfortunately, that isn't true considering it's the most costly.

The Best Healthcare in the World: Country Rankings

Discover the countries with the best healthcare in 2024 and learn about the key factors that make Italy, Singapore, and Iceland top the list.

www.internationalinsurance.com

Healthcare is very important, especially if you are older. Just from personal experience I can't believe this ranking is correct. My mother had a stroke in Denmark and everything (diagnosis, treatment, care) was so much better there, mostly because there was more staff. We were flabbergasted especially because you could always feel doctors and nurses did everything they could while still being compassionate. Back in Germany it was a shock for us, like being back in a 3rd world country.

 

[Shadrach]

I lived in Catalonia Spain for ten years and I've lived in other countries for shorter periods of time.
Many people get caught in a romantic view of moving to another country as can be seen in this thread.
You need to be quite clear about why one wants to move as a starting point.
You need to be aware of your ability to access the health care system. This can take some years.
You need to be aware that if you are of pensionable age the probability is the country you move to will tax your pension once it enters the country.
If one isn't prepared to learn the language then things are not likely to go well.
For Portugal you are likely to need both Spanish and Portuguese.

 

[Ken1951]

(Mexico is second)

I would give this many, many second thoughts. My mother-in-law lived in Guad for 25+ years and was quite financially comfortable. When she passed, the system there was horrid to deal with. Selling her home, since she was not a Mexican citizen, resulted in 20% right off the top paid to the government. And god forbid you have to deal with their legal system. Completely and totally corrupt from top to bottom. Need to get your case in the appropriate court - bribe. Actually, bribes left and right. We told my wife's lawyer we'll pay you X$, you pay all the bribes out of what we're paying you. Beautiful country, lovely people and we still have friends there that are as close as family. But you couldn't pay me to move there. Not even mentioning the crime. I had gone out birding there years ago and would not do it now.

 

[madrac]

Healthcare is very important, especially if you are older. Just from personal experience I can't believe this ranking is correct. My mother had a stroke in Denmark and everything (diagnosis, treatment, care) was so much better there, mostly because there was more staff. We were flabbergasted especially because you could always feel doctors and nurses did everything they could while still being compassionate. Back in Germany it was a shock for us, like being back in a 3rd world country.

Agree healthcare is very important.
I'm sure there are other rankings which will look different...I just chose one from a google search. All depends on the methodology. I also find some of the rankings hard to believe from what I know/heard about some of those countries.

 

[Esprit]

Unfortunately, that isn't true considering it's the most costly.

Italy seventeenth

 

[Marc v E]

In Europe it is actually quite common to move to another country after retirement.

Usually because of the higher temperatures during fall and winter; or for reasons like less pollution or health reasons which are easier to bear in a dry and warm climate. House pricing is usually lower than countries in the north of Europe. Health care sometimes better than at home and always good enough. Certainly near or in big cities.

A big bonus is that the food in countries like Spain and Italy is great and cultural sites and museums abundant.

So in short it's just a better quality of living. Which is why people go there on holiday. And why they want to stay. It's really quite simple.

 

[Chr1]

Flagging up Holland as another possibility. Food is not quite up there with the best in Europe (but as good, if not better than here in the UK, I reckon). Lots of great museums, galleries etc. Plus no need to learn Dutch if languages are an issue, and certainly no worries re cannabis consumption.

 

[Joe Smith]

Unless I'm misunderstanding Canada's immigration policies (after a lot of research), anything above a 6-month visitor visa is going to be tough. Spouse and I are very comfortably retired (USA), but a path to full-time residency appears to be remote for retirees. Canada is still top of our list (Mexico is second), but need to figure out where to live for the other 6 months.

Yeah, I'd love to be able to move up to Winnipeg from Iowa and then dip down south when we need healthcare or to see the kids, but practically speaking, it's all just too difficult. As much as I am deeply, deeply concerned about the United States right now, as retirees I think we need to stay put, at least for now.

We meet with our financial advisors and I will at least be introducing the additional goal of "being able to get out of the US and reside in other countries, on short term residency status, if an emergency were to arise." (If there's time to get away, that is.)

I wish Canada would make some new policies to make it possible for US residents to come up there, but they have their own fish to fry, it's probably a dangerous thing to propose and try to enact...

 

[Astoneroad]

A big bonus is that the food in countries like Spain and Italy is great and cultural sites and museums abundant.

Since all my grandparents were born in Italy, I can apply for dual citizenship, but I'm not sure about costs vs benefits. I don't know if that moves the needle for me... although that let's stay there without having to relocate every 6 months. I'm just looking to swim beneath the chaos until I have swim across the Styx... (nice doggie...).

 

[lowdef]

Since all my grandparents were born in Italy, I can apply for dual citizenship, but I'm not sure about costs vs benefits. I don't know if that moves the needle for me... although that let's stay there without having to relocate every 6 months. I'm just looking to swim beneath the chaos until I have swim across the Styx... (nice doggie...).

Benefit: An Italian passport makes you part of the EU!

 

[BlackTalon]

Since all my grandparents were born in Italy, I can apply for dual citizenship, but I'm not sure about costs vs benefits.

I started looking into this, as if I get it than my sons should be able to. It might have some benefits for him when he becomes an adult. But it may affect my security status with some government agencies, which would be a big issue at work. Worst case is I'll wait 10 more years until I'm at least partially retired. At that point I'll be able to take advantage when doing what I hope will be a bit more travel around Europe.

 

[Astoneroad]

I started looking into this, as if I get it than my sons should be able to. It might have some benefits for him when he becomes an adult. But it may affect my security status with some government agencies, which would be a big issue at work. Worst case is I'll wait 10 more years until I'm at least partially retired. At that point I'll be able to take advantage when doing what I hope will be a bit more travel around Europe.

By that time you can cross the t's and dot the i's to expedite the process. Still diggin' your Salons?