Consensus on the best mid-fi Hifiman to get these days?

[Robbo99999]

Hifiman is also known to send out review samples that differ from current production samples.
And because they match channels very well, doesn't mean there isn't a big spread in sample to sample performance. You can still match L+R.
I'm not saying Oratory's measurements are wrong. I'm saying that there examples out there that have better bass extension than the one he shows in his measurements and mine could be one of them (I suspect so) and maybe it is consistent with the most recent production lots.

Oratory actually mentioned that unit to unit variation was very low on the Hifiman HE4XX, I added the channel matching part as a logical extension of that....so I'd expect your Sundara which is a more expensive Hifiman headphone to have at least as low unit to unit variation as the HE4XX. Oratory normally gets his headphones from retail samples that people send in to him, not review samples sent directly from the manufacturer. I don't know why your Sundara apparently has deep bass extension according to you, instead I trust Oratory's bass measurements for the reasons I mentioned in an earlier post.

... in a good way, not in a bad way.


I didn't talk about hearing loss at very high frequencies. I talked about losing treble sensitivity at the usual below 10 KHz frequencies. Unfortunately, age-related hearing loss (or rather "hearing degradation") isn't limited to very high frequencies. Hence the usual "I'm sorry, come again please ?" by many older people.


I too thought that, but the L30 designer seems to say otherwise for his amp. Turns out it's very handy that way! I love leaving the volume knob in max position and just adjusting digital volume from my keyboard. Here are John Yang's messages :

View attachment 156699

View attachment 156696

I'm sure no difference can be heard anyway. The L30 is a beast and its performance for any knob position is way beyond human hearing capability.

Johnyang is just referring that the L30 performs better at the 0dB gain level rather than the +9dB gain level....so I think he's just saying you should use 0dB medium gain setting where possible. And your second part of John Yang's message you highlighted where he said "Then adjust volume to taste" - he means twiddling the volume knob on the L30 amp to get your desired listening level (not altering the digital volume to get your desired listening level). He also says to set the DAC (E30) as close to maximum volume as possible, so he's saying to keep digital volume as close to maximum as possible, and then you use the volume knob on the L30 amp to alter to your desired listening level whilst also hopefully having the L30 on medium gain (which is the 0dB option), as the medium gain option is the cleanest.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Oratory normally gets his headphones from retail samples that people send in to him, not review samples sent directly from the manufacturer.

I absolutely agree. I guess he does that to protect himself from any manufacturer influence.

Johnyang is just referring that the L30 performs better at the 0dB gain level rather than the +9dB gain level....so I think he's just saying you should use 0dB medium gain setting where possible. And your second part of John Yang's message you highlighted where he said "Then adjust volume to taste" - he means twiddling the volume knob on the L30 amp to get your desired listening level (not altering the digital volume to get your desired listening level).

He also said "in the dashboard, the L30 is set to 0 dB with volume pot at max... So no distortion". Go figure.

 

[Robbo99999]

I absolutely agree. I guess he does that to protect himself from any manufacturer influence.


He also said "in the dashboard, the L30 is set to 0 dB with volume pot at max... So no distortion". Go figure.

It's possible he also means you get least distortion when volume pot is close to max, but that doesn't mean you should lower digital gain to allow your L30 to be at max on the volume pot....I think he's really saying use the medium gain 0dB mode, have your digital output at maximum (the DAC & software), then twiddle the volume knob to get your listening level. That's the accepted best practice for use of a headphone amp, I mean one of the advantages of an analog volume pot is that you're not negatively influencing the noise floor vs signal, both of those are staying the same from the DAC, whereas if you lower digital volume then your noise floor stays the same but your signal decreases, hence lower SINAD....so instead you leave digital at maximum output for best noise floor to signal ratio and then using the analog volume pot you adjust to your desired listening level - which keeps the ratio of noise floor to signal the same.

Re Oratory, I'm guessing he gets most of his headphones from users as the manufacturers probably don't have much incentive to send him free headphones to measure as he's not a reviewer, he's providing the stark measurements that often don't put headphones in a good light. Perhaps there have been a few manufacturers that have sent him headphones (I don't know), but I can easily see most of his headphones coming from users. Sending a headphone to Oratory is great because you get your own personalised measurements of that particular unit, which you can use to get a personalised EQ to the Harman Curve - hence you're completely eliminating the unit to unit variation variable within your EQ.

 

[RHO]

... in a good way, not in a bad way.

No. Older models instead of the most recent production versions.

 

[RHO]

I didn't talk about hearing loss at very high frequencies. I talked about losing treble sensitivity at the usual below 10 KHz frequencies. Unfortunately, age-related hearing loss (or rather "hearing degradation") isn't limited to very high frequencies. Hence the usual "I'm sorry, come again please ?" by many older people.

I know, but that's not the people they used for the research that resulted in the Harman target curve for over-ear headphones.
Anyway. From all the info I have I can conclude that my (and others) sample of the Hifiman Sundara likely has a bit better bass extension than the one Oratory measured.
Could be the most recent production badge performs a bit better in that regard. Could be I got lucky. Or my HD6XX performs worse than the one Oratory measured.
No way to know or I would have mine measured by Oratory AND perform in-ear measurements.

 

[RHO]

Oratory normally gets his headphones from retail samples that people send in to him, not review samples sent directly from the manufacturer.

OK, then I have no idea why mine has better bass extension than my HD6XX. It's clearly between the Aeon RT and the 6XX, where it should be equal to the 6XX according Oratory's measurements.
Could it be positioning on the head? That mostly has less influence on the bass, right?
Or does it have lower distortion and can that give the impression of better extension? (less distortion would give the impression of less SPL I would suspect)

 

[Robbo99999]

OK, then I have no idea why mine has better bass extension than my HD6XX. It's clearly between the Aeon RT and the 6XX, where it should be equal to the 6XX according Oratory's measurements.
Could it be positioning on the head? That mostly has less influence on the bass, right?
Or does it have lower distortion and can that give the impression of better extension? (less distortion would give the impression of less SPL I would suspect)

Maybe the 6XX gives you less bass than the measurement, maybe that headphone doesn't seal particularly well on you, and why you therefore perceive the Sundara to have better bass extension? Otherwise I don't know.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

No. Older models instead of the most recent production versions.

No manufacturer would ever submit to measurement or testing a model/version that would perform worse than expected. Besides, Oratory has measured BOTH Sundara revisions anyway.

From all the info I have I can conclude that my (and others) sample of the Hifiman Sundara likely has a bit better bass extension than the one Oratory measured.

No, you can't conclude that "just because potatoes". We are on ASR here. You can however think what you want subjectively, that's up to you.

Or my HD6XX performs worse than the one Oratory measured.

That's what I said some posts ago. With that said, an experienced listener shouldn't need a second reference like the 6XX to assess if his own Sundara has or doesn't have enough (sub)bass relatively to the supposedly neutral Harman curve. The lack of bass should be quite obvious, just like the difference between a non-EQed Sundara and an EQed Sundara is obvious. Try with my app (or Peace or whatever), instantly switching between EQed and non-EQed. Maybe then you'll feel the difference and we'll all be happy.

 

[MayaTlab]

I'm not disagreeing with any of that. What you are describing are various things that can make a headphone sound worse : if the fit isn't ideal, if the seal isn't perfect so there's leakage, etc.. But I have yet to find things that can make a headphone sound better than intended and have a much lower bass extension that it's supposed to have. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saking that it's unlikely / uncommon.

Resolve's copy did measure with a flatter bass extension, whether on his test equipment or on his own head :

If RHO's copy happens to have very little leak in the front volume, it will extend quite low similarly to what most planars can achieve in these conditions (unlike, let's say, a pair of HD600 which is always going to be quite open). Given the way the pads attach to the housing for example, I can see how some variation could come from that area.
I'm not quite certain what to make of the Sundara's bass performance in light of these conflicting measurements, and I certainly don't know how we could as a result determine what was intended in the first place anyway.

Especially when RHO is saying that the Sundara's fit on his own head isn't ideal. Any hints on how a non-ideal fit could make a headphone sound better? No?...

That isn't the case of the Sundara but some HPs' bass levels can be elevated when seal is breached, which some people may think is "better" :

Abyss AB-1266 Phi TC

Okay guys, I’ve spent some time with the AB1266 Phi TC and am ready to post my thoughts/conclusions. There will also be a video review coming out soon that I’ve been working on. For anyone wondering, this is a recent unit from sometime this year, and it was sent in by Humble for review - big...

forum.headphones.com

No manufacturer would ever submit to measurement or testing a model/version that would perform worse than expected. Besides, Oratory has measured BOTH Sundara revisions anyway.

Yes, and so has Resolve.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I was figuring in about $450 for the Bottlehead Crack amp. But the Senn still cost too much, and I need something Hifiman since I have to exchange the ones I own for another model.

If you want a neutral sound, you do not want a tube amp. If at some point after you have a good neutral set up, you might be able to justify a tube amp as part of a "change of pace" set up, but not as you one and only.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Resolve's copy did measure with a flatter bass extension, whether on his test equipment or on his own head

Nice video Just to be as accurate as possible, let's point out that the "flatter" bass extension that we see in the video is still 4-5 dB below the "Harman bass" in the sub-bass area (Resolve reminds it at some point). Which is of course closer than the 9-10 dB that the "roll-off Sundara" measured by Oratory have.

In other words, in that favorable "ideal pads / ideal seal / whatever" case we would still only be about "halfway there", and we would still need a bit of sub-bass EQ to get "all the way there" if we want to match the Harman target.

If you want a neutral sound, you do not want a tube amp. If at some point after you have a good neutral set up, you might be able to justify a tube amp as part of a "change of pace" set up, but not as you one and only.

This. THIS.

EDIT - And I don't agree with what Resolve says in his video from 58:14 to 59:00. An amp HAS to be as transparent as possible, it's part of the specification. An amp needs to amplify, not to bring anything new to the original sound. And once you get that nice neutral / transparent amp (like the L30 and some others are), THEN you can play with other amps (tubes, etc.), or filters / DSPs / enhancers / crossfeeds / whatever you like. Because you can always come back to that neutral "Hi-Fi" reference and know exactly what you're doing. So saying "I like a little bit more flavor" in a YouTube video just doesn't make sense to me. It's guru talk, not science talk. Especially when you're heavily relying on science by doing a 2h live video with an expensive GRAS 43 rig. In other words, you are relying on science only when it suits you, and that's not serious to me. Just my two cents.

 

[shaney777]

If you want a neutral sound, you do not want a tube amp. If at some point after you have a good neutral set up, you might be able to justify a tube amp as part of a "change of pace" set up, but not as you one and only.

This makes sense!! I think I will be satisfied with the Atom's performance, at least for the time being. I might hold off on the DAC for a while but was seriously considering Topping D10s. I just have to figure out how to get Hifiman to honor their one year warranty repair or replacement promise. They keep telling me there are no replacements available and that I must upgrade. Ridiculous.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

I might hold off on the DAC for a while but was seriously considering Topping D10s.

In that case you could as well consider the E30. If I'm not wrong, similar price, newer product, better performance. I have 3 of them, no issues so far.

I just have to figure out how to get Hifiman to honor their one year warranty repair or replacement promise. They keep telling me there are no replacements available and that I must upgrade. Ridiculous.

Ridiculous indeed. Worst case scenario, maybe pick something that's on sale, pay the difference, and then sell it as new/unboxed after the sale ends ?

 

[shaney777]

In that case you could as well consider the E30. If I'm not wrong, similar price, newer product, better performance. I have 3 of them, no issues so far.


Ridiculous indeed. Worst case scenario, maybe pick something that's on sale, pay the difference, and then sell it as new/unboxed after the sale ends ?

Thank you. I am not sure how to hold Hifiman to their one year warranty. This is all by email, but now they are telling me that I can get a replacement for my HE400i if I pay $115. Is there no warranty at all? I wonder if others have had this issue. Customer service is horrid.

 

[MrBrainwash]

I am not sure if I understand correctly.

Let's put aside losing money becouse of amps that you returned.

Yours HE400i was demaged and they offered you an upgrade to Sundara for 115$ instead of repairing old unit or exchange for similar product without pay. Is that correct?

Well... if yes then it's not fair but not a bad deal eather.

 

[shaney777]

I am not sure if I understand correctly.

Let's put aside losing money becouse of amps that you returned.

Yours HE400i was demaged and they offered you an upgrade to Sundara for 115$ instead of repairing old unit or exchange for similar product without pay. Is that correct?

Well... if yes then it's not fair but not a bad deal eather.

That is what they offered, but it's essentially like me having to buy another HE400i because they sent me a defective item. Here's a post I just made on the Head-fi forum:

"Is it legal for Hifiman to refuse their one year warranty? I bought HE400i (2016) from the Hifiman online store a few months ago, and I feel the sound is definitely defective. As stated on their website, a one year warranty is included with this purchase, and they will repair or replace your headphones.

My communication has so far been limited to email, but essentially they're saying I will not get a replacement unless I upgrade to a significantly more expensive model than I purchased. First they told me that no model in the price range vicinity of HE400i was in stock (although they're all still available for purchase in the store), then they told me they couldn't replace with any model similar in price, then they told me that they could replace with a HE400i if I pay $115. Story changing much? LOL
At this point it sounds like I am dealing with scammers. Normal customer service for Hifiman?"

 

[Robbo99999]

That is what they offered, but it's essentially like me having to buy another HE400i because they sent me a defective item. Here's a post I just made on the Head-fi forum:

"Is it legal for Hifiman to refuse their one year warranty? I bought HE400i (2016) from the Hifiman online store a few months ago, and I feel the sound is definitely defective. As stated on their website, a one year warranty is included with this purchase, and they will repair or replace your headphones.

My communication has so far been limited to email, but essentially they're saying I will not get a replacement unless I upgrade to a significantly more expensive model than I purchased. First they told me that no model in the price range vicinity of HE400i was in stock (although they're all still available for purchase in the store), then they told me they couldn't replace with any model similar in price, then they told me that they could replace with a HE400i if I pay $115. Story changing much? LOL
At this point it sounds like I am dealing with scammers. Normal customer service for Hifiman?"

What they're saying to you there sounds totally unreasonable, as well as not sounding like the truth - of course there's HE400i's they can send you as a replacement - like you said they're still selling them! I would try to show them that of course there are HE400i's available as they are still being sold, so push for that.

 

[Vict0r]

Try to find a second hand HD580. That'll get you 95% of a HD600 for a fraction of the cost. I think the HD580 represents the best value in headphone audio right now, IF you can find one. I picked mine up second hand for about $70.

 

[shaney777]

What they're saying to you there sounds totally unreasonable, as well as not sounding like the truth - of course there's HE400i's they can send you as a replacement - like you said they're still selling them! I would try to show them that of course there are HE400i's available as they are still being sold, so push for that.

I did mention that, but they ignored it. They ignored a lot of what I said, or acted like they didn't understand.

 

[shaney777]

Try to find a second hand HD580. That'll get you 95% of a HD600 for a fraction of the cost. I think the HD580 represents the best value in headphone audio right now, IF you can find one. I picked mine up second hand for about $70.

$70 sounds like an awesome deal.