Connecting TV to a pair of active speakers: dialog audibility and compression

[fly]

I own and enjoy a pair of KEF LS50 Wireless II. I bought them mostly for music, but I would also like to use them as a 2.0 setup for my TV (Sony X900F/XF90), using the HDMI or optical connection. My sources are mainly Netflix and Amazon apps.

I am aware that this is maybe a rather trite topic, but I am not sure I am understanding it completely. I have two main problems.

1. Often the dialog is too low. I suspect that this could be insufficient level of the central channel in the downmix from 5.1 to 2.0 performed by the TV, but it seems that there’s no way to customize it. Also, Netflix let you (sometimes?) select beteween 5.1 and stereo track, but Amazon app show no such setting.

2. Sometimes the dynamic range is too big for my living room, especially with neighbours and kids... TV provides a “night mode” setting, but it does work only with internal speakers.

My conclusion is that TV is not enough here... How to solve this? I suspect that getting an AVR and using pre-outs (or getting a processor) could allow for more control, but it seems to me that this would be overcomplicated (waste of channel complexity for a 2.0 setup, no use for the power amplifiers, chunky box...). Any other solution?

 

[sweetchaos]

How to solve this?

Both problems are solved with an AVR.
2 technologies:
1. "Yamaha's YPAO Volume" is equivalent to "Audessey's Dynamic EQ"
- It is a fancy fletcher munson curve that varies based on volume.
2. "Yamaha's Adaptive DRC" and "Audessey's Dynamic Volume"
-They are dynamic range controls and could make dialog seem louder by limiting dynamic range but again don't boost the dialog.
- If “On” is selected, the dynamic range becomes narrow at a low volume and wide at a high volume.

Another solution for clearer sound would be to get a dedicated single speaker, for center channel.
You'll still need an AVR to hook it up to.
Plus, right now, you don't have any room correction.
With an AVR, you'll get room correction included to get rid of excess bass.
Plus AVR gives you all modern streaming options, that maybe lacking with your TV.
So if you have 3 speakers, and are watching/listening to 2ch sound, you can upmix to 3rd center channel using your AVR's presets/DSP.
Your solution is an AVR...

I'm ignoring any issues that room acoustics that play...solved with rugs, drapes, avoiding overly reflective surfaces, etc.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

With AppleTV you can ask Siri to "reduce loud sounds"

 

[Wombat]

I have a Sony 55X8500E TV connected to 2xJBL LSR305 Mklls.

The TV has Standard, Dialogue and Cinema modes for audio.

Being an older guy I am interested in sound clarity. The above noted modes work for me, mostly.

Be aware that source material can have poor sound even if you have it heard better elsewhere.

 

[fly]

I have a Sony 55X8500E TV connected to 2xJBL LSR305 Mklls.

The TV has Standard, Dialogue and Cinema modes for audio.

Thanks. I tried them out. However, I am not sure to hear a difference in center channel boost or dynamics (however, I definitely hear a difference in equalisation): maybe it's just me. The menu is a bit unclear on the exact impact of such a setting on downmix.

Dyanmics is definitely too high for my current home usage.

 

[fly]

Both problems are solved with an AVR.

Yes, a receiver would probably solve it. But given my situation:

• 2.0 setup
• All sources are TV apps (Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, Disney+, etc.)

Using an external receiver would mean:

• Getting 5.1 or even 7.1 channels and using 2
• Not using HDMI input switching, only ARC
• Unnecessary DA/AD conversion, as I would need to use LS50 Wireless II analog input, not digital ones (and possibly more noise)
• Not using the AVR power amplifiers at all
• Inability to operate the speaker volume from the TV (?)
• Additional bulky box
• Additional cost

I was wondering if there is a more efficient way... It would be great to have a small box with and HDMI-ARC input and an optical audio output, giving you customisable surround audio decoding, adaptive compression, etc., as it seems to me that TVs are not doing this well enough.

Am I getting this wrong? Does such device even exist?

 

[Wombat]

You could use an audio line level compressor.

 

[fly]

You could use an audio line level compressor.

Suggested models?

 

[Wombat]

A pro model will give better control than most consumer models but will be larger.

Other members can suggest reasonably priced used models.

This is a reasonably priced new one: https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0CCW. Note that it has 4-channels which should cover your needs in one unit. Around $200 in the US.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Possibly use equalizer built into kefs and boost midrange frequencies where voices are for quiet environments. You actually might target midrange boost similar to what yamaha ns-10 has.

 

[mdsimon2]

If you are looking at a compressor I would consider a miniDSP nanoDIGI or an OpenDRC-DI. The Behringer previously linked would require an unnecessary DAC but those miniDSP products have customizable compressors and are digital. They would also give you substantial ability to EQ response.

Michael

 

[Trdat]

SweetChaoss has summarized all the info consicely. Floyde Toole's take, is important to note. I also have experimented with a few ways to improve dialouge with different sources and find centre speaker works best.

1. Floyde Toole mentions as the matrix pans the dialog to the centre speaker it gives you the opportunity to increase the volume. So a few DB increase in centre speaker does help with discerning conversation in movies and television.

2. Now, whether the phantom centre is better than centre speaker is a tough one, for dialouge the research is also confusing perhaps someone else has some more definite info on this. I admit when it comes to pure dialouge say a youtube video with no other sounds, I use a phantom centre but with TV, I find the centre speaker does really help in seperating the loud dynamic parts from the dialouge. And with an increase in volume with the centre speaker you do get a significantly improved capability to hear voice. So it depends on the source and how the matrix pans everything out, again Floyde Toole states that a centre speaker for movies improves speech inteligibilty. Mathew Poes in his Audioholics video also mentions this.

3. Personally, I can't live without dynamic compression. I have a Marantz and Denon and I am familiar with Audyssey and most of the time its on highest compression and it does help with dialouge as well. If for some reason I use phantom centre dynamic volume does its job.

4. Acoustic treatment is another topic in itself as some research shows that early reflections help with speech inteligibity while some later reflections muddle it. So this is openieng a can of worms and maybe one day a thread will clear this up when it comes to improving dialouge with acoustics.

Netflix does support surround matrix meaning that if the movie or show was recorded properly which most new TV shows are and you use an AVR chances you will get decent dialouge in the centre speaker or even with only compression being used, while both should do the trick.

 

[Azi_muth]

1. Often the dialog is too low. I suspect that this could be insufficient level of the central channel in the downmix from 5.1 to 2.0 performed by the TV, but it seems that there’s no way to customize it. Also, Netflix let you (sometimes?) select beteween 5.1 and stereo track, but Amazon app show no such setting.

Having had a 2.0 setup for a long time I also experienced the same problem. Positioning the speakers better improves it a bit, but doesn't solve it completely. A true center speaker changes things for the better. At this point I wonder if the problem derives from a cancellation phenomenon due to the crosstalk introduced by the downmixing algorithm that actually has to "spread" the center channel on the fronts.

 

[fly]

In the meantime, I’m taking advantage of the weekend to do more tests. I’m more and more convinced that the main problem is the lack of compression related to my constraints on volume level in a residential setting. Probably the Downmix operated by the TV is fine and the phantom centre is fine too (even if probably still inferior to a real centre, as mentioned in this thread).

It’s really a shame that my TV seems to disable the compression settings (“night mode”) when connecting external speakers. You can do “night mode” only on internal speakers.

 

[LTig]

Try to set the TV such that it used both internal and external speakers. Then the internal speakers work like a center.

 

[abdo123]

Try to set the TV such that it used both internal and external speakers. Then the internal speakers work like a center.

How do you set the volume in this way.

 

[LTig]

If you are looking at a compressor I would consider a miniDSP nanoDIGI or an OpenDRC-DI. The Behringer previously linked would require an unnecessary DAC but those miniDSP products have customizable compressors and are digital. They would also give you substantial ability to EQ response.

The Behringer DEQ2496 Ultracurve pro could be a good alternative. It has an 10 band PEQ, a 31 band GEQ and a compressor (and many more audio helpers) and can stay in the digital domain (optical SPDIF I/O) if you do not use the analog I/Os.

 

[LTig]

How do you set the volume in this way.

The TV volume works on the internal speakers. The external speakers may need there own volume control.

 

[fly]

Try to set the TV such that it used both internal and external speakers. Then the internal speakers work like a center.

How? I would expect that internal speakers would give the same signal as external ones , maybe more compressed. not to mention a possibly different delay due to DSP on external speakers.

 

[abdo123]

The TV volume works on the internal speakers. The external speakers may need there own volume control.

How do you make sure the output volume of both is equal?

If the center speaker is too loud or too low then the whole image is ruined anyway.