Confused Newbie

[momo7G]

Hello all,
I recently got a pair of sennheiser hd 700 as gift. Then the problem started.

As I noticed this is a pair of serious HiFi headphones with serious price (to me at least). I want to make the most of it and bring out the best of the headphones. Then I started to research the topic and get really confused.

Some will say I need a 1000 dollars tube amp for it and match it with another 1000 dac.

Some say, if I find the cans are loud enough, I don't need to buy more boxes for it.

Then I come across this forum. People here seems helpful and back up their point with facts, which I appreciate.

So my question is, do I really need to buy an amp/dac for the HD 700? If yes, my budget will be around one hundredish...

I mainly use the cans on PC and listen to apple music through iTunes.

Thanks for sharing my worries

 

[Grave]

Yes, you probably need a DAC/amp.

Nothing is ever going to sound better than a cheap audibly transparent DAC/amp (which will not distort the sound in any audible way) unless you are delusional. Topping is a well regarded brand here, but I am sure there are plenty of others you could go for.

The HD 700's have a pretty insane frequency response though. I would suggest trying the HD 580/600 or the HD 650/6XX instead.

 

[derp1n]

If the HD700s are loud enough for you out of your PC and you can't hear any noise, you don't need to buy anything.

There's an audiophool meme that headphones sound vastly better with expensive amplifiers. This is often called "scaling". It's complete rubbish.

 

[momo7G]

@Grave
The HD700 is a no sale It's a gift from my partner, so after I sold it, my kidneys and other organs will be sold soon after that...

However, this may get my feet wet to buy more headphones in future. If my wallet allows...

@derp1n
Thanks for you advice, I will pay attention to any funny noise from headphones. But in the mean time, it seems ok... or maybe I am turning them too loud

 

[amirm]

I think you will find an external amp to have much more power and better bass response. Whether you also get an external DAC is up to you. There are many combo units with DAC+amp. I would not get a tube amp. The ones I have tested all sound worse and have more maintenance. And you don't need to spend $2000. You can get a good solution for $400 or less for both.

See my review tomorrow on the home page for even a lower cost pairing.

 

[momo7G]

@amirm
Oh that's good timing~! Can't wait your post tmr

 

[restorer-john]

Some say, if I find the cans are loud enough, I don't need to buy more boxes for it.

Loudness and overall fidelity are two different things. Anybody can have loud. Not everyone appreciates fidelity or wants to go down an expensive hole to get it.

I would listen/borrow/trial a decent headphone amplifier and compare it to your PC's output. We have no idea what is in your PC. It could be quite good, it could be horrible.

See what Amir comes up with tomorrow- it could be right up your alley.

 

[momo7G]

@restorer-john
I got what you mean, put in car terms, such say both cars can travel 0 - 100 at 5 seconds. But how you feel from different cars is the real deal.

The only comparison I got is my phone. Sorry to upset you but, at the moment, I cannot really tell the difference. Perhaps my ears need more work than the headphones

 

[Soniclife]

What phone is it? Some phones are very good.

 

[andreasmaaan]

@restorer-john
I got what you mean, put in car terms, such say both cars can travel 0 - 100 at 5 seconds. But how you feel from different cars is the real deal.

The only comparison I got is my phone. Sorry to upset you but, at the moment, I cannot really tell the difference. Perhaps my ears need more work than the headphones

The thing is that with any good modern DAC, levels of distortion and noise so far below the level of the signal that only the signal is audible. In other words, modern DACs (unless they're badly designed) all sound the same - that is, they sound like the signal they are reproducing and nothing else.

What's your source? E.g. laptop, iPhone, etc..? It may already have an inbuilt DAC that is transparent. If it doesn't, or if you just don't know (for example if it's a laptop and you don't know what the quality of the soundcard is) there are plenty of affordable DAC/headphone amp combos that are cheap and will perform well enough to be transparent.

The HD700s have a high input impedance, so if you need anything it's more likely to be an amp with a decent amount of power.

But the first question is what your source is.

 

[andreasmaaan]

The other suggestion I'd add is that you might end up wanting some kind of EQ. Headphone frequency responses are very particular, and heavily influenced by the interaction between the headphone and the shape of your head and ears. So you might want to consider using a DAC that incorporates an EQ so that you can set it to a level that sounds most balanced and natural to you (also because the HD700 frequency response is a bit on the creative/idiosyncratic side)

 

[momo7G]

@Soniclife
The phone is Samsung Note 8, I guess it's ok-ish source?
The volume set as 60% an I am happy with it.

@andreasmaaan
Oh wow, that's some detailed explanation... nice one.
I plug directly into my PC motherboard, which gets a Reaktek ALC 892. Then I flipped through the spec, it says the DAC with 95dB SNR and 3.3V power. I guess it also does the amplifying work, otherwise no sound will shoot out from the cans.

On the EQ, do you think I should just go and buy something like sonarworks ture fi? or should I try fiddling with custom EQ like Equalizer APO

 

[andreasmaaan]

@momo7G glad it helped a bit

There are some measurements of the Samsung Note 8 here. Yes, it has an inbuilt amp as well as the DAC. The verdict seems to be that the audio quality is excellent, but be sure not to use "bandwidth upscaling" setting, which destroys the audio performance. In "bit upscaling" mode only, the measurements appear to be good enough to be transparent on the basis of what's published in that link IMHO.

Re: EQ, whether you want to use one depends on how the headphones sound to you without one. Unfortunately, with headphones there is no single objectively correct frequency response (as I mentioned, it depends on the interaction between headphone and head/ear), and no easy way to measure, so your only tools are your ears and some educated guesswork.

How do the headphones sound to you without EQ?

Is there an on-board EQ on the phone? If so, does making adjustments improve the sound?

If you like, I can send you a screenshot of the EQ settings (using a software EQ I have) for those headphones that would yield the Harman response, which is the current most respected attempt at defining the ideal "neutral" headphone response on a head with standard head/ear dimensions. You could input those settings into your EQ and listen to see if it improves the sound for you?

PS it sounds like the headphones are already plenty loud for you with your Note 8 - did I understand that correctly? You might not need an amp in that case.

PPS frequency response is by far the most important factor in how headphones sound once you have everything else more or less in order (i.e. low noise and distortion and adequate power).

PPPS I've read through the measurements again - it seems that just running it without any enhancements (i.e. no bit upscaling) will also be totally transparent, although there is a slight measured improvement with bit upscaling enabled).

 

[momo7G]

@andreasmaaan
I guess this is the first time I sit down and be focused reading something since I left school

Thanks again for looking up the spec, you understand correctly. Music sounds pretty loud and clear from both PC or mobile phone. Happy with the bass too.

I also play around little bit with the eq settings in the phone, makes me wonder sometimes more settings can be making the music sound funny or maybe more personal taste.

It suddenly seems to me that, the diminishing factor of money in hifi equipment is so great. The result of a big chunk of money put in for not so much noticeable result. As I remember someone says :"You don't need a surgical blade to eat with."

 

[andreasmaaan]

@andreasmaaan
I guess this is the first time I sit down and be focused reading something since I left school

Thanks again for looking up the spec, you understand correctly. Music sounds pretty loud and clear from both PC or mobile phone. Happy with the bass too.

I also play around little bit with the eq settings in the phone, makes me wonder sometimes more settings can be making the music sound funny or maybe more personal taste.

It suddenly seems to me that, the diminishing factor of money in hifi equipment is so great. The result of a big chunk of money put in for not so much noticeable result. As I remember someone says :"You don't need a surgical blade to eat with."

Haha exactly

Over a certain point, all DACs sound the same. This point may be anywhere from 3€ to 100€ depending on where you decide the threshold of audibility of noise and distortion is (with poorly-designed or deliberately distorting exceptions at every price point of course, right up to the €10k+ price point).

For amps, the minimum price point for audible transparency is a little higher, and there are other factors to consider like output impedance and power capability, which depend on what's up-chain. But still, there are plenty of reasonably affordable amps that are transparent (and ofc plenty of very expensive amps that aren't).

Headphones and speakers are different though - there are audible differences between virtually all headphones and speakers, and because we are dealing with acoustic energy in three-dimensional space once the speaker/headphone translates the electrical signal into sound pressure waves, there is no single correct/perfect standard - although overall there is a clear range within which good speakers and headphone measurements should fall.

Keep playing with the phone EQ is my advice With those HD700s, try a little (maybe 3dB) narrowband boost around 1700Hz, a narrowband cut (maybe 3-6dB) around 6000-6500Hz, a little (up to 3dB) cut around 200-250Hz, and a little (maybe 6dB) shelf up below 80-120Hz.

 

[rtos]

On the EQ, do you think I should just go and buy something like sonarworks ture fi? or should I try fiddling with custom EQ like Equalizer APO

EqualizerAPO (with the Peace GUI) is great, but my setup recently stopped working after I switched DACs and probably needs a reinstall. When looking for an alternative, I ran across Headphone EQ. It includes a built-in frequency sweep generator that lets you identify frequency peaks/dips by ear and then correct them with its parametric EQ. It's available as a free plug-in component for Foobar2000.

 

[momo7G]

@andreasmaaan
Speakers are tempting and a good idea to revenge my annoying neighbor.
But for the mean time, for this weekend perhaps, EQing the headphones is a funny project!!

@rtos
The headphone eq looks good, I will give it a try. Thanks