Confused about DACs ranking compared to price tags (and diverse questions)

[Khelek]

Hello,

From what I get from different readings on the forum, a high price tag doesn't mean a product is necessarly well-designed (I nearly bought Hegel H95 before reading the review here...).

But among all the well-designed and recommended ones tested here, how come there can be such a price difference ?

For example, the following DACs ranks very high and close to each other in the testings : SMSL Sanskrit 10th mk2, Allo Boss 2, Gustard x16/SoncozSGD.

What would justify to buy the 2 most expensive ones over an Allo Boss 2 that is also a streamer or over the SMSL that is an inexpensive simple DAC ? Do they even sound different from each other (to human ears I mean ) on the following system : Musicbee (WASAPI) on Windows 10 x64 -> USB to DAC -> RCA to amp : Audio Flight Three mk2 -> Speaker : JMR Folia Jubilee.

I also see that different power supplies for the Allo Boss 2 are recommended to improve "something". But what exactly ? And if it does, is it true for other DACs ?

Thanks in advance !
François

 

[voodooless]

But among all the well-designed and recommended ones tested here, how come there can be such a price difference ?

Because ignorance is bliss.

What would justify to buy the 2 most expensive ones over an Allo Boss 2 that is also a streamer or over the SMSL that is an inexpensive simple DAC ?

It looks better? Has some features you need?

Do they even sound different from each other (to human ears I mean )

probably not

I also see that different power supplies for the Allo Boss 2 are recommended to improve "something". But what exactly ? And if it does, is it true for other DACs ?

The reviews were done with de default power supplies and the measurements are great. Don’t expect any improvements from a different PSU. Amir tested some of these and never found any differences.

 

[DVDdoug]

With modern electronics it's cheap & easy to make a DAC (or an amplifier) that's better than human hearing. Of course, you do pay more for more amplifier power.

how come there can be such a price difference ?

A lot of factors. Most of the cost goes into the case, power supply, switches & controls, etc. A nice expensive case with lots of controls costs more to make. And of course it costs more to manufacturer if it's not made in China.

When you get into the "audiophile market", it costs more to manufacture & distribute specialty items in small quantities. And when you sell fewer items you have to make more profit on each item. A separate preamp or power amplifier (specialty items) usually costs more than a mass-manufactured receiver with more features and otherwise similar performance.

And the higher the price, the more desirable it becomes to "audiophiles"!

BTW - It's pretty much the same with headphones... Very little correlation between price & sound quality. With speakers, there's more correlation and you can generally get a better speaker if you're willing to pay more.

 

[DSJR]

To the OP primarily...

By the standards of ten years or so ago and also used the way 99% of people use it - purely from the speaker outputs, the Hegel is absolutely FINE, with good control over wayward bass drivers and no audible noise issues in the dac (they should have left off the variable output sockets!). It 'feels' nice to use and is simple so anyone in the family can easily use it - so there !!!!! I still love the concept regardless and I've spent a good few hours at my dealer pal working with this brand providing the music in the background via Harbeth XD speakers of different models. Hegel is dealer bought, so account must be made of the profit margin the dealer has (I doubt it's near 50% though).

What's been happening in the past ten years is the rise and rise of *seriously good* Class D amps at not silly money and dac technology is now commoditised to the point where a decent inexpensive model in plain-Jane casework, will out-perform what was a state of the art pricey example fifteen to twenty years back and maybe sooner than that! Topping point the way and Schiit do similarly at not silly money (if you're careful with model choice) and with a fun but sincere story to tell as regards the company and its history - I appreciate there are other equally worthy makes out there at not silly money...

The High End as I'm increasingly seeing it now my retirement is nearing completion, is selling dreams to wealthy retirees and the fancier and more expensive the *casework,* the more costly and status enhancing these boxes become irrespective of what's inside or how it performs - HiFi News over the last few years is full of such items and better value limited-production UK firms such as Croft for example (not 'good enough' for here I suspect), are regarded as 'cute or quaint.' Just my take obviously, but I'm finding it depressing where once upon a time a few decades back, I lapped it up - the latest upgrade was a mere bank-loan away back then...

 

[Majestyk]

DAC's are not ranked by sound here. Only measurements. All DAC's do not sound the same to a lot of people, including myself.

Here's an example:

Schiit Yggdrasil 'OG' Measurements (One month warmup test) - GoldenSound

Measurements of the Schiit Yggdrasil A2 DAC and testing if there are any differences with the infamous warmup of this DAC.

goldensound.audio

GoldenSound, who is very much like Amir, in that he does not believe in snake-oil hocus-pocus when it comes to audio, shows similar no so great measurements of the Schiit Yggdrasil OG, which Amir has shown in the past. Yet, GS ranks the Yggdrasil as one of the most unique sounding DAC's he's ever heard. (He doesn't talk about sound much in this particular test, I only know this from his Youtube videos)

Don't let some people here brainwash you into thinking all DAC's sound the same. Even the soundstage on various DAC's can be quite different. An A/B switch might be needed to tell the difference.

Here's an example of a very pricey DAC GS reviewed on Youtube, in which he feels is too smooth sounding...

 

[voodooless]

Don't let some people here brainwash you into thinking all DAC's sound the same.

And yet, where is the proof with a controlled listening test between some of these very good measuring DAC’s?

 

[Majestyk]

And yet, where is the proof with a controlled listening test between some of these. very good measuring DAC’s?

I'm not going to get baited into this nonsense.

 

[storing]

how come there can be such a price difference ?

Apart from what others mentioned, features. Some DACs also have an extensive DSP section (EQ, loudness, ...) so that means extra chips, controls, and a lot of software some of which is not trivial. Whether that always justifies the price is something else, but yeah, marketing...

I'm not going to get baited into this nonsense.

Awesome, lately there's been enough of this stream of useless posts repeating the same principles over and over.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'm not going to get baited into this nonsense.

Funny that is what I thought when I read your post that voodooless was responding to.

 

[voodooless]

I'm not going to get baited into this nonsense.

Well, I am… Exactly what does not make sense here? Controlled testing?

Science is not a shopping mall. You can’t just take what you like. Either you embrace it all, or nothing.

 

[solderdude]

GoldenSound, who is very much like Amir

I think both will hartedly disagree ... and so do I.

The only things they have in common is an AP555, having a youtube channel, a website and access to equipment to measure.

how come there can be such a price difference ?

Brand name (reputation), functionality, profit margin, production origin, usage of more expensive parts, small vs large production runs, looks, size, connectivity to name but a few. Where there is a market there are opportunities to make money and there are people jumping into it.

 

[Jimbob54]

Well, I am… Exactly what does not make sense here? Controlled testing?

Science is not a shopping mall. You can’t just take what you like. Either you embrace it all, or nothing.

The more I think about it, the more the Goldensound approach is a genius idea by him but also massively bad for the hobby as it encourages the attitude of pick n mix about your approach to purchases .

Im waiting for the inevitable question posted here or elsewhere :

"I want a DAC with great measurements, that is transparent to the source but also very smooth with tamed highs and deep lows. What should I buy?"

 

[antcollinet]

I'm not going to get baited into this nonsense.

What nonsense?

Oh - you mean doing proper controlled testing - rather than relying on golden ears. Well I guess to the golden eared this might sound like nonsense. But for anyone interested in genuine information - it is the only way.

Fact of the matter is - well measuring DACs (flat FR, noise and distortion below the level of audibility) will sound the same - becasue what they put out is the same (audibly) as what is put in.

It is of course quite possible for poor measuring dacs to sound different. Because noise and distortion can become audible. It is even possible for someone to prefer the sound of that distortion. But if that is you, don't fool yourself into thinking what you are hearing is HIFI (high fidelity). It is the exact opposite.

 

[BoredErica]

Even golden ears can make mistakes. Nobody is perfect.

 

[ZolaIII]

Well there is a mesured performance (only key in "ranking" classification around hire) in transport function (SINAD balanced @ 4V and unbalanced @ 2V output) and there are preferences (subjective and objective from looks - feals to functional capabilities).
If something is mesured transparently to the level of theoretically possible human hearing that means no one can hear a difference because what ever problems it could have are pushed under the hearing threshold but that's in analog transport.
Different analog transcoders (speaker - driver's) will have different limits and physics (as how far are they away or how they get in, enclosure, refractions...) impact in which case DAC/AMP needs only to be transparent to the level they can achieve. Than again you won't really listen pounding loud music to the mind blowing fealing (as you will get deaf suner than later) even if system like whole can take it without much distortion (96 dB program on speakers or 106 dB on hedaphones).

 

[MCH]

DAC ABX Test Phase 1: Does a SOTA DAC sound the same as a budget DAC if proper controls are put in place? Spoiler: Probably yes. :)

This thread is meant to once and for all settle the age-old question on whether different non-broken DACs have a "sound" or if all DACs sound the same! :cool: ...just kidding - those debates will probably never end. :p Let me start by providing the link to the ABX test. Note: There are 16...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[rockphotog]

Some DACs also have an extensive DSP section (EQ, loudness, ...) so that means extra chips, controls, and a lot of software some of which is not trivial.

And to add to that: Follow-up, service and guarantees. One good example is RME, which not only make solid products, but keep upgrading the firmware and support them many years after release (which is what you want from a professional product).

 

[ZolaIII]

How to inflate a price quickly? Put a chunky expensive FPGA and expensive power supply inside so that you can claim 3% higher efficiency and that the DSP and small functional improvements will be possible in the future (which in most cases remains only a promise). At least that's how I would have done it and of course write poem about it (DAC).

 

[Khelek]

DAC ABX Test Phase 1: Does a SOTA DAC sound the same as a budget DAC if proper controls are put in place? Spoiler: Probably yes. :)

This thread is meant to once and for all settle the age-old question on whether different non-broken DACs have a "sound" or if all DACs sound the same! :cool: ...just kidding - those debates will probably never end. :p Let me start by providing the link to the ABX test. Note: There are 16...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thanks, that will be an interesting reading !

And thanks for all you replies. I do understand that, as in any market, more functionnalities, manufacturer origin or quantity of production etc have an influence on price. I'm even ready to support local manufacturers even if it costs more (to a certain limit, which is my budget...) but only at the condition that the basic thing a product is supposed to do is at least as good as a cheaper product !

Anyway, most of you are able to clarify things for people like me who don't have technical knowledge in this field and that is very welcome !

 

[MarkWinston]

To some here, get the cheapest 'good measuring' dac with all the connections you need and be done with the dac journey. Enjoy your 100 bucks Modi or whatever dac that has measurements that you deem fall in the inaudible range. Im here smiling with the D90SE. SOTA AND good sounding to my ears are all I need, whenever I can afford it.