Concern regarding hearing damage from short term excessive noise exposure (Headphones)

[AudioBozo]

G'day all!

I have made this post as I am curious to know what you think, and if you get a chuckle at my idiocy in the process then I will consider that a bonus.

A week ago I was engaged in a competitive online game when a genius decided to obnoxiously blast his music down his in-game microphone to what was a very uncomfortable volume for me, highly compressed audio and overall just unpleasant. Although I cannot clearly recall, it couldn't have been far off my pain threshold as if it was on it I would have hoped I had the sense to prioritise my hearing in the moment. Instead of simply removing the headphones I committed to seeing out the remainder of the match which in hindsight was probably not the best move, this resulted in around 30 seconds of excessive volume exposure. Matching dB to exposure time OSHA would give me about a minute at 110dB, I do not really have a reference for this in regards to headphone use and no clue what the actual sound level would have been. I am generally very hearing conscious which makes this ordeal extra frustrating for me, I already have low level tinnitus and have been stressing for a week that it may have made it worse which seems to have become a self fulfilling prophecy. The 'master volume' in game was identical for both game and voice volume, so although there seemed to be a large discrepancy in voice chat volume to game sounds its not like I had accidently maxed out my amp or anything like that, point being I cant see it have being astronomically loud although far past my comfort threshold.

I am not looking for a medical diagnosis of course, and it is impossible to determine the risk outcome given I am unsure of the levels I was exposed to but was curious if anyone had any insight into the feasibility of my concerns given the short exposure time. I am aware that short term NIHL from the likes of gunshot's/explosions etc can occur very quickly however the effects of this become immediately apparent to the individual from my understanding which was not the case here.

My hearing seems otherwise fine in an obvious sense, I am more concerned about subtle degradation. I am clinging to the 'what if's' as I do not have a solid objective foundation to determine whether I have caused any damage, so any additional insight someone may have would be beneficial for me. Seeing a professional would seem excessive and no measurement can tell me where my hearing was a week ago for comparative purposes so I believe it a waste of time. Regardless there is no choice but to move on and be more careful in future, just curious if my concerns are warranted given this was a one off case. I have done a lot of reading but still unable to convince myself one way or the other, converting environmental sounds from OSHA charts to make a judgement for a theoretical headphone equivalent isn't easy i.e food blender, rock concert. Especially when relying on memory.

Thanks for reading, and apologies for the odd post.

 

[NTK]

No need to apologize, it is a very important issue. We all need to be careful as scientists have recently (last 10-20 years) discovered a new form of hearing loss called the hidden hearing loss. The gist is that if you have experienced a temporary threshold shift, it is too loud.

Can You Hear Me Now? Detecting Hidden Hearing Loss in Young People

New types of hearing tests can pick up early damage missed by current tests—perhaps in time to reverse it

www.scientificamerican.com

13 dBHL of hearing loss. Continue using IEMs and headphones?

These results are superimposed from the PTA audiogram test I had and it looks like I have low-frequency hearing loss in both ears (13dBHL right ear and 12dBHL left ear), and my right ear has lost some high frequencies. This makes me wonder, how long can use IEMs and headphones until it reaches...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[AudioBozo]

No need to apologize, it is a very important issue. We all need to be careful as scientists have recently (last 10-20 years) discovered a new form of hearing loss called the hidden hearing loss. The gist is that if you have experienced a temporary threshold shift, it is too loud.

Can You Hear Me Now? Detecting Hidden Hearing Loss in Young People

New types of hearing tests can pick up early damage missed by current tests—perhaps in time to reverse it

www.scientificamerican.com

13 dBHL of hearing loss. Continue using IEMs and headphones?

These results are superimposed from the PTA audiogram test I had and it looks like I have low-frequency hearing loss in both ears (13dBHL right ear and 12dBHL left ear), and my right ear has lost some high frequencies. This makes me wonder, how long can use IEMs and headphones until it reaches...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Hey NTK,

Thanks for the links it made for an interesting read, seems like a threshold shift would have been apparent at the time of the incident and generally occurs after longer listening periods i.e concerts, raves, football games. Given I was averaging around half a minute and did not experience any obvious side effects hopefully I got away with it on this occasion. Although I believe the level I was listening at would have been enough to cause such a shift, I do not believe the exposure time was long enough to experience one.

I think I would have been pretty aware at the time if this was occurring. Although I very much agree that the issue itself is important if we were talking pure likelihood do you still think there is cause for concern given my specific circumstances?

Thanks again,

 

[Haflermichi]

You are right to be concerned. There is nothing you can do about that one incident now except learn from the experience and develop
more rigorous hearing protection protocols for yourself.

Beyond temporary threshold shift hearing damage is cumulative. You do not get it back, we age, it does not get better.
If we're really unlucky we'll develop tinnitus along with environmental and biologically endemic hearing loss.
We are biological machines, all machines wear out. The hearing system, along with vision, is one of the most delicate, intricate and
irreplaceable senses we have.
Not withstanding hearing aids and surgery for cochlear implants, replacement lenses and corneal transplants there are no spares.

Just learn from the experience. Even it it's not painful, be aware. Common sense should dictate this.
Was that one game session worth all the grief? Be aware. Turn it down.
I personally have hearing loss and tinnitus and have multiple sets of plugs in all my vehicles and bags and use them in dozens of
circumstances every year, hell, multiple times a month. I do this from awareness and proactively to reduce the chances of further damage.

It is really quite astounding to be in a loud venue or at an event where I see people shouting at the top of their lungs into someone else's
ears literally an inch away. And they are doing this to overcome the already far too loud ambient sound.
No good can come of that.

 

[Somafunk]

Instead of simply removing the headphones I committed to seeing out the remainder of the match which in hindsight was probably not the best move,

Username checks out……

Just jesting , I can’t imagine they’ll be any lasting impact on such a short exposure but perhaps next time you play this dickhead use an air klaxon down your mic when you kick his arse (no…don’t use an air klaxon…….i was joking)

 

[AudioBozo]

You are right to be concerned. There is nothing you can do about that one incident now except learn from the experience and develop
more rigorous hearing protection protocols for yourself.

Beyond temporary threshold shift hearing damage is cumulative. You do not get it back, we age, it does not get better.
If we're really unlucky we'll develop tinnitus along with environmental and biologically endemic hearing loss.
We are biological machines, all machines wear out. The hearing system, along with vision, is one of the most delicate, intricate and
irreplaceable senses we have.
Not withstanding hearing aids and surgery for cochlear implants, replacement lenses and corneal transplants there are no spares.

Just learn from the experience. Even it it's not painful, be aware. Common sense should dictate this.
Was that one game session worth all the grief? Be aware. Turn it down.
I personally have hearing loss and tinnitus and have multiple sets of plugs in all my vehicles and bags and use them in dozens of
circumstances every year, hell, multiple times a month. I do this from awareness and proactively to reduce the chances of further damage.

It is really quite astounding to be in a loud venue or at an event where I see people shouting at the top of their lungs into someone else's
ears literally an inch away. And they are doing this to overcome the already far too loud ambient sound.
No good can come of that.

Hey Hafler,

Thanks for the reply, in answer to your question "Was that one game session worth the grief?" the answer is definitely not. Trouble for me is I am dealing with two separate issues at the same time, the objective facts of what occurred and anxiety surrounding what I could have done. This is a one off scenario and not something I make a habit of. I seem to have convinced myself the situation is worse than it likely is, which is easy to do when I have no factual basis to determine whether or not actual damage has occurred.

I agree with your example regarding concert goers, I have been to 2 in my life and had ringing afterwards going into the evening however that was a few hours as opposed to 30 seconds. I suppose I have no way of knowing if I have 'gotten away with it' in regards to 0 impact on hearing, just need to move on from it as you say. Hopefully I will get bored of myself and stop mourning something I am not even sure I have lost shortly.

 

[AudioBozo]

Username checks out……

Just jesting , I can’t imagine they’ll be any lasting impact on such a short exposure but perhaps next time you play this dickhead use an air klaxon down your mic when you kick his arse (no…don’t use an air klaxon…….i was joking)

Haha, username sure does.

Naive and early 20's, I agree with your observation. Knowing myself I certainly lean into the 'what if's' and health is no exception, especially with my ears. Naught I can do about it now, stressing over it hasn't gotten me anywhere and I nor anyone else will know exactly how loud it was.

Thanks for your two cents,

 

[Haflermichi]

You will probably be fine. There is no way to know, or measure, if damage was done. Just learn and move on more aware.
"Early 20's" is a much better time to become aware of this issue than much later.

I wish I had your concern, and now awareness, when I saw Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Def Leppard and countless others live, not to mention being in a mediocre metal cover band myself...oh so many decades ago.

 

[Somafunk]

Haha, username sure does.

Naive and early 20's, I agree with your observation. Knowing myself I certainly lean into the 'what if's' and health is no exception, especially with my ears. Naught I can do about it now, stressing over it hasn't gotten me anywhere and I nor anyone else will know exactly how loud it was.

Thanks for your two cents,

Ha, I really wouldn’t worry about it, back in 2010 I went to Berghain in Berlin as a mate was playing and I spent 12 hours in the club exposed to the most ferocious techno as I thought I had packed my ear bud attenuation filters (20db to 30db) but their carry case was empty , I had to use cheap and rather ineffective foam thingys the bar sold instead, I suffered mild ringing for a few days afterwards but it eventually went away. I’ve always been very protective of my hearing and was pretty distressed at the thought of causing permanent damage.

At the age of 52 i can still hear a 15khz tone at 75db as I recently got my ears/eyes tested as part of my annual spms consultation so I’m happy enough with that

 

[DVDdoug]

I wouldn't be THAT worried. There probably isn't that much headroom, end-to-end, so it may have been more compressed (and possibly clipped) than high overall SPL levels. That's still bad but not AS bad.

 

[AudioBozo]

You will probably be fine. There is no way to know, or measure, if damage was done. Just learn and move on more aware.
"Early 20's" is a much better time to become aware of this issue than much later.

I wish I had your concern, and now awareness, when I saw Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Def Leppard and countless others live, not to mention being in a mediocre metal cover band myself...oh so many decades ago.

Without assuming your age we know a lot more now than back then so it's more understandable, appreciate the input

 

[AudioBozo]

Ha, I really wouldn’t worry about it, back in 2010 I went to Berghain in Berlin as a mate was playing and I spent 12 hours in the club exposed to the most ferocious techno as I thought I had packed my ear bud attenuation filters (20db) but their carry case was empty , I had to use cheap and rather ineffective foam thingys the bar sold instead, I suffered mild ringing for a few days afterwards but it eventually went away. I’ve always been very protective of my hearing and was pretty distressed at the thought of causing permanent damage.

At the age of 52 i can still hear a 15khz tone at 75db as I recently got my ears/eyes tested as part of my annual spms consultation so I’m happy enough with that

It is scary idea to me that you can lose the ability hear a certain frequency again, doubly so when you could have prevented it.

Read something a few days ago which gave me a good chuckle, there may be some validity to husbands who have the ability to tune out their screaming wives as they lose the ability to hear the higher frequencies their voices produce over the years. How true that is I am not sure.

If I had the opportunity to have a test up to 20khz I would probably go for it, given typical hearing tests only do up to 8 for speech purposes I do not see much point for me. I know those cat alarms piss me off, or at least they did a week ago

 

[AudioBozo]

I wouldn't be THAT worried. There probably isn't that much headroom, end-to-end, so it may have been more compressed (and possibly clipped) than high overall SPL levels. That's still bad but not AS bad.

Hey Doug, if you are referencing dynamic range its pretty much non-existent for the voice chats in these kinds of games, highly compressed garb. Regardless I have no choice but to let it go, just wasn't sure if I would get a 'no way hosay' or 'you would know instantly if you did any real damage over such a short period' type comments as all my prior reading didn't lead me to any satisfying conclusions. Given the in game voice volume was set to the same value as the game volume which sounded fine I cant imagine there being a huge amount of headroom, its not like I maxed out my amp or something. Odds are it was a shock to my ears given it far exceeded my typical listening levels to which my anxiety has inserted its own telling of what occurred.

I would have imagined there would be tell tale signs of hearing damage for volume exposure significant enough to cause permanent harm over such a short period of time as 30 seconds, it make sense that subtler unperceivable changes could occur over longer periods however.

 

[NTK]

Although I very much agree that the issue itself is important if we were talking pure likelihood do you still think there is cause for concern given my specific circumstances?

I'll start with the usual caveat ... if in doubt, please consult a licensed/certified hearing health professional ...

Having gotten that out of the way, I may use this threshold shift vs exposure chart as a very rough guide to limit noise exposure to below the levels that will cause a shift. For example, for the 95 dB exposure curve, the curve starts to rise above 0 dB at ~35 seconds, which means 95 dB noise will cause a threshold shift after an exposure of longer than ~35 seconds. So I'd use hearing protection if I anticipate that I'll be exposed to this level of exposure, and include a healthy amount of safety factor.
(Source: https://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio-webdav/cmns/Handbook Tutorial/Audiology.html)

I doubt a one-time exposure of ~half minute, when below the threshold of pain, would cause permanent damage above those from the usual age relate deterioration.

 

[AudioBozo]

Woah, NTK bringing the science.

Thanks for the link to the article, reading graphs is not my forte but combining that with what you have written I think I get what I am looking at. From my understanding 70dB is a volume where you can essentially 'go ham' and listen for as long as you want, but the graph seems to indicate a threshold shift around the 45min - 1 hour mark. This would indicate that 30 seconds of 90dB has an equivalent threshold shift of around 45min of 70dB. Assuming threshold shift always indicates potential damage from what you linked before in regards to hidden hearing loss do these findings contradict the status quo?

Am I interpreting that correctly? Ironically science was my weakest subject.

EDIT: From an NCBI article: "Threshold shifts of up to ~50 dB immediately after a single noise exposure may recover completely, while more extensive immediate hearing losses are more likely to result in permanent losses of hearing sensitivity"