Compression drivers?

[Sal1950]

Just a nice photo from the web—compressors vs ribbons:

Dang, I guess the owner likes LOUD music. LOL
I would love to get a more reserved demo of that large horn rig. I hope he has the ability to sit further back from them than the rooms picture suggests?
I've been a horny guy for over 45 years now and currently find JBL's science-designed systems to be at the SOTA for horns.
I wish I had the room for the larger systems but the HDI design of my 5 HDI- 3600-4500 perform excellently in my limited space.

He and I talked about that, and my recollection is that he didn't believe in the practicality of a horn loaded midbass as the mouth round-overs would need to be huge to get the kind of ripple-free behavior he wanted.

Practicality has always been the big issue when designing low freq horns for home use. Paul Klipsch's designs for the K-horn and La-Scala's were goalpost moving work in their time and still have some value today. I hope to get a listen to the newest DRC designs at the Feb Tampa show. YMMV

 

[Duke]

Dang, I guess the owner likes LOUD music. LOL
I would love to get a more reserved demo of that large horn rig. I hope he has the ability to sit further back from them than the rooms picture suggests?
I've been a horny guy for over 45 years now and currently find JBL's science-designed systems to be at the SOTA for horns.
I wish I had the room for the larger systems but the HDI design of my 5 HDI- 3600-4500 perform excellently in my limited space.

Practicality has always been the big issue when designing low freq horns for home use. Paul Klipsch's designs for the K-horn and La-Scala's were goalpost moving work in their time and still have some value today. I hope to get a listen to the newest DRC designs at the Feb Tampa show. YMMV

The 877MG/877BE driver looks exactly like the Radian 951 motor. That's a fantastic motor but the exit angle is unorthodox which imo has contributed to DIYers sometimes getting disappointing results with it.

 

[Puddingbuks]

Still in love with my Avantgarde Colibri.

1.5 inch compression driver, 700-19.000 hz.

 

[Flaesh]

I wish I had the room for the larger systems

What size is your room? Roy Delgado put it something like this: "The smaller the room, the more you need a larger horn." The idea is obvious, but why not appeal to an authority?
And another obvious thing (but most people do the opposite) in the form of a quote from a Japanese collection of articles about listening rooms: person → music → way of listening → space → speakers → equipment (emphasis added)

 

[Sal1950]

What size is your room? Roy Delgado put it something like this: "The smaller the room, the more you need a larger horn." The idea is obvious, but why not appeal to an authority?

Being about 10' wide, that is the restricting issue, not cubic ft. If you look at the arrangement in my signature you can understand it better.

 

[Mr. Widget]

The 877MG/877BE driver looks exactly like the Radian 951 motor. That's a fantastic motor but the exit angle is unorthodox which imo has contributed to DIYers sometimes getting disappointing results with it.

A couple of years ago JBL stopped producing the 476Be and 476Mg drivers and started using these Radian based drivers. I'm fairly certain they are still using JBL's proprietary 4" Be and Mg diaphragms, but I don't know if they asked Radian to modify the throat or phase plug. Regardless, I am disappointed that they have decided to move over exclusively to the D2 drivers.

I wonder how long they will support their DD67000 owners?

 

[Sal1950]

I wonder how long they will support their DD67000 owners?

? How long will your favorite car company continue to support products like all the digital display products being used in modern autos?
They're exposed to extreme heat, vibration, impacts, UV ray burn, much more.

 

[Newman]

We where asking you several times, so of course we didn't know that exact quote from you from some other thread, please don't assume we know everything you post.

Well, what did you do with it (details) when you got it? Oh, this? vvvv That's it?

I don't know that particular guy though, but I now other people on Diyaudio and other places that build them and seemingly proving your guy wrong. John White, aka JW Sound that's behind the JMOD, Solanas and SAWMOD is most probably the leading expert when it comes to multiple entry horns. Well we got Tom Danley and Scott Hinson as well, all building great multy way horns.

"Your guy vs my guys"? Really? Let's lift the conversation just a little. Especially since diyaudio.com is the last place you want to look for audio science (mainly because its tiny snippets of actual audio science gets drowned out by pseudoscientific DIY experimentation by hyper-energetic builder types, who then get put on pedestals by lay readers and elevated to faux expert status).

Fall in love with problems, not with solutions. I like this as an exhortation to budding scientists. For ASR conversations, the first part alludes to audio science, the second part to audio fandom. And there is a natural tension there for hobbyist discussions, and we see it most on ASR whenever a thread is opened that pertains to one specific solution, especially an unconventional one, whereby the fandom for that solution arrives in force and doesn't want to hear inconvenient truths from the science. Denialism and argumentativeness goes through the roof. I have learned to limit my engagement with the hyper-argumentative. But I will continue to put forward what relevant science I am aware of, and let it stand. More for neutral readers than for those who are too deep in to back out.

And believe me, I have been a long way down some audio fandom paths, including horns, so I am not judging, just overviewing. I implore us to not let ASR threads get swamped by fandom and defensiveness (be it unity horns or horns in general, panel speakers, record players, ladder DACs, the list goes on).

So when an actual audio scientist, who has advanced the science of the modern horn using the scientific method, raises fundamental issues with the unity horn concept that he concludes make them undesirable for home audio, let's sit back and take stock, not rush to dismiss or to think it is instantly outweighed by manufacturers of said solution, or busy bandsaw artists, or owners saying "I don't hear any problems" in (ahem) sighted listening.

cheers

 

[Sal1950]

And believe me, I have been a long way down some audio fandom paths, including horns, so I am not judging, just overviewing. I implore us to not let ASR threads get swamped by fandom and defensiveness (be it unity horns or horns in general, panel speakers, record players, ladder DACs, the list goes on).

Whether factory built or DIY, we always need to use the same tools and metrics for evaluation, maybe more-so with DIY.
I'm sure it's way harder for a project builder to be full objective and unbiased after putting many long hours into the design and construction of any component.

 

[Tell]

Well, what did you do with it (details) when you got it? Oh, this? vvvv That's it?

"Your guy vs my guys"? Really? Let's lift the conversation just a little. Especially since diyaudio.com is the last place you want to look for audio science (mainly because its tiny snippets of actual audio science gets drowned out by pseudoscientific DIY experimentation by hyper-energetic builder types, who then get put on pedestals by lay readers and elevated to faux expert status).

Fall in love with problems, not with solutions. I like this as an exhortation to budding scientists. For ASR conversations, the first part alludes to audio science, the second part to audio fandom. And there is a natural tension there for hobbyist discussions, and we see it most on ASR whenever a thread is opened that pertains to one specific solution, especially an unconventional one, whereby the fandom for that solution arrives in force and doesn't want to hear inconvenient truths from the science. Denialism and argumentativeness goes through the roof. I have learned to limit my engagement with the hyper-argumentative. But I will continue to put forward what relevant science I am aware of, and let it stand. More for neutral readers than for those who are too deep in to back out.

And believe me, I have been a long way down some audio fandom paths, including horns, so I am not judging, just overviewing. I implore us to not let ASR threads get swamped by fandom and defensiveness (be it unity horns or horns in general, panel speakers, record players, ladder DACs, the list goes on).

So when an actual audio scientist, who has advanced the science of the modern horn using the scientific method, raises fundamental issues with the unity horn concept that he concludes make them undesirable for home audio, let's sit back and take stock, not rush to dismiss or to think it is instantly outweighed by manufacturers of said solution, or busy bandsaw artists, or owners saying "I don't hear any problems" in (ahem) sighted listening.

cheers

Yes please lets lift this conversation. Sorry but you're the one that made claims without anything backing it up, getting several questions about doing so but you kept on dancing around it and then finally after several days you link to another thread since you for some reason can't even be arsed to write in this thread where we are having the actual discussion. And yeah sure that linking answer why MEH might not good period, but not why they're not suited for specifically home audio which you claimed.
So yes please lets lift this conversation.

This is some measured polars from John White/JW_Sound/galucha's designs, and also Tom Danley. Gedde writes about some problem at the crossover, but you won't find any of those in these polars. Sure they're not perfect but there's no huge problems neither at the crossover (you probably guess wrong where they are) or in the high frequencies. To me it feels you/Gedde overstates the problem instead of MEH evangelists overstating the positives. And you might argue about distortion, but for home audio I'd argue that whatever distortion there might be it's not an audible problem.

I do agree with you about diyaudio in general is quite unscientific though, for example going over to the Class D forum I often see people changing components and claiming this or that sounds better, but with no measurements in sight backing that up which is quite frustrating.
On the other hand in the MEH threads I follow I do see quite a lot of measurements being done, especially by John White which definitely is an expert in this particular field with lots of experience that he shares over there. He also have a thread about his open source program Boundary Lab (built on Ath4) that he among other things did quite interesting automated iterative design work for speaker horn shapes to get the optimal directivity. He also uses that to really finely simulate whole subwoofer cabinets and rigs of them to see the whole polar pattern of them, woofer displacement of each driver alone etc.

So yeah I'm all for scientific approaches and arguments, but you haven't come with any. I mean I am genuinely curious about the actual downsides of whatever designs there is which is why I was asking in the first place, so I would gladly see those arguments, and preferably backed up by something

Whether factory built or DIY, we always need to use the same tools and metrics for evaluation, maybe more-so with DIY.
I'm sure it's way harder for a project builder to be full objective and unbiased after putting many long hours into the design and construction of any component.

I don't think it's harder (or easier) for a project builder to be fully objective compared to bigger companies, I mean expensive high end audiophile brands quite clearly show little interest in being fully objective and unbiased so.

 

[Sal1950]

I don't think it's harder (or easier) for a project builder to be fully objective compared to bigger companies, I mean expensive high end audiophile brands quite clearly show little interest in being fully objective and unbiased so.

I can't disagree but the point being, no speaker is perfect, they all offer compromises in areas of performance across the board.
But if you built it yourself, it's hard not to believe it's the best one ever done.

 

[Tell]

I can't disagree but the point being, no speaker is perfect, they all offer compromises in areas of performance across the board.
But if you built it yourself, it's hard not to believe it's the best one ever done.

Yup of course, building stuff yourself will always feel better than buying it (well within reason of course). And yeah everything has their compromises in one way or another, and when it comes to horns the biggest ones is probably WAF ;P

 

[Sal1950]

And yeah everything has their compromises in one way or another, and when it comes to horns the biggest ones is probably WAF ;P

I faced that issue a bunch of years back and more than once when it came to my horns and motorcycles.
It was an easy one to solve, get rid of the wife and keep your beloved toys.
There's a lot's of women in this world.

 

[Flaesh]

you can understand it better.

Yeah, I watched it four times. I think I probably would have dropped the front right speaker by now. There might not be enough space for a standard small two-way speaker like

, ~800 xo ))

ps: [not for Sal's room] or lower xo, but it will be larger:

 

[Tell]

I faced that issue a bunch of years back and more than once when it came to my horns and motorcycles.
It was an easy one to solve, get rid of the wife and keep your beloved toys.
There's a lot's of women in this world.

Guess there was more to it as well, but yeah it's not a good thing when a partner stops the other one from enjoying their interests.

 

[Sal1950]

I think I probably would have dropped the front right speaker by now.

Drop my FR speaker and break the 5 channel bed system? OH HELL NO

 

[Flaesh]

OH HELL NO

That’s why my both two speakers are tucked into the corners and the four subwoofers are mounted on the walls; most of the room’s space is left open for whatever else .

 

[Mr. Widget]

Guess there was more to it as well, but yeah it's not a good thing when a partner stops the other one from enjoying their interests.

The key is finding the right partner. My partner and I are working together to design an ADU to house our surround system and theater.

 

[fpitas]

The key is finding the right partner

So true. A friend's wife is a musician. His huge horn speakers are fine with her!

 

[bmc0]

My biggest complaint with the OS waveguide, is my understanding they don't do well much below 1000Hz.

Do you mean OS in general, or just as used in a typical 2-way implementation? An OS synergy-like design will perform almost the same as a conical one below a couple kHz, assuming equal mouth size and coverage angle(s).