Compression Drivers for Music at Home?

[watchnerd]

Like everybody, I've certainly heard compression drivers in sound reinforcement, PA, and movie theater settings.

However, I've never heard or used them in a recording production setting (I'm not saying it isn't done, just that none of the monitors I've used had compression drivers), nor have I ever owned a speaker with drivers in my own home.

The consensus among the DIY speaker crowd seems to be that, as a general rule of thumb (and of course there are exceptions to such a rule), dome tweeters sound better at low-mid volumes, but start to suffer dynamic compression at high volumes, while compression drivers don't sound as good as domes at low-mid volumes, but stomp them at high volumes.

Would people generally agree with that?

What are your experiences with compression drivers at home?

 

[Purité Audio]

TAD here, 4001, 703 they sound extremely good played quietly and really really loudly.
Not cheap mind.
Keith

 

[amirm]

I only have limited experience with them. Sat through two rounds of Project Array 1400 for example and in both cases picked it as the best. Playback level was "normal" and not over the top (speaker to the right)

Likewise the 4367 at RMAF was playing at modest levels. On M2 though, I have only heard it past 11:

 

[dallasjustice]

IMO, it's a little apples/oranges. Compression drivers require a wave guide and domes don't. So the question for me is to compare the best compression driver/waveguide combo with the best dome/baffle combo.

 

[oivavoi]

This is very anecdotal, but for what it's worth: I've heard one compression driver+horn I really liked, and one I compression+horn combo I didn't like at all. Given that it's just two cases, and that my listening might have been biased, I really don't put much weight on that.

But what I have remarked, is that the DIY guys who do horns and compression drivers tend to report that they listen at very high volumes. Much higher than many other people. One can interpret that in several ways:
- they got compression drivers/horns because they like to play loud
- they play loud just because they can
- their driver/horn combo actually sounds much better on higher volume, so subconsciously they're drawn to turning it up to 11.

But this is all just speculation on my part.

 

[RayDunzl]

I have a trombone, that's as close as I can come to a compression driver in the house.

Larry Greenhill reviewed the Array 1400.

"Conclusion:

JBL's Synthesis 1400 Array BG impressed me with its three-dimensional imaging, impressive transparency, ambience retrieval, capacity to "disappear," and fine timbral detail.

It gave my similarly priced reference speakers, the electrostatic Quad ESL-989s, a run for their money for its excellent balance across the audioband, its good timbral retrieval, and its three-dimensional imaging—and it exceeded the bass-shy Quad in its reproduction of pipe organ and percussion and its ability to play much louder. On the other hand, the Quads excelled in soundstage depth and resolution of musical detail.

I was also impressed with the JBL's naturalness and lack of distortion, qualities I'd heretofore thought were the exclusive province, in this price bracket, of Quads."

 

[Blumlein 88]

Like everybody, I've certainly heard compression drivers in sound reinforcement, PA, and movie theater settings.

However, I've never heard or used them in a recording production setting (I'm not saying it isn't done, just that none of the monitors I've used had compression drivers), nor have I ever owned a speaker with drivers in my own home.

The consensus among the DIY speaker crowd seems to be that, as a general rule of thumb (and of course there are exceptions to such a rule), dome tweeters sound better at low-mid volumes, but start to suffer dynamic compression at high volumes, while compression drivers don't sound as good as domes at low-mid volumes, but stomp them at high volumes.

Would people generally agree with that?

What are your experiences with compression drivers at home?

You have to be careful generalizing. My anecdotal experience with just a few compression drivers is they don't sound good at any level. They will play loud, but you won't care.

But had the same experience with various horn speakers too. Heard K-horns a few places they didn't really belong and thought them way too shouty though efficient and loud. Finally heard some setup properly in an old house with a very large room. They were properly placed in corners of this large room with 12 foot ceilings. They weren't my favorite, but not bad. Much better than I had every heard them before. Certainly one could listen to music quite enjoyably on these. Plus they had dynamic slam better than almost anything you get to hear in people's homes despite probably doing nothing below 50 hz.

 

[Purité Audio]

There are horns and there are horns, short front loaded horns can be spectacular , horns can also be truly ,truly dreadful.
Keith

 

[Sal1950]

Nice set of Synthesis 1400's for sale on ebay for $4998,88
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-Synthes...rs-/132080557295?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

 

[amirm]

He wants $600 for economy shipping though!

 

[Cosmik]

Horns are one of those areas where I wonder if all hi-fi enthusiasts are listening for the same thing: they never sound very good to me and, as in the Stereophile review above, the measurements always look a bit dodgy - although I am sure they are really good on paper in terms of control of directivity.

Horn enthusiasts are always talking about dynamics. I can't help but think they are comparing horns against 'legacy' systems that are already pretty poor in terms of dynamics. Against active speakers, there wouldn't be any difference.

 

[Purité Audio]

There are so many loudspeakers that claim to be 'horns' you have to treat each individually, a single driver ,back loaded fart box is not the same as a five way two ton front loaded system.
I agree about dynamics though, I don't believe they are more dynamic than good actives, presentation is different ,but again you would have to discuss specific designs.
I like Ralph's designs we have the four way semi-active 'Liszt' here,
http://www.puriteaudio.co.uk/cessaro
Keith

 

[Sal1950]

Horns are one of those areas where I wonder if all hi-fi enthusiasts are listening for the same thing: they never sound very good to me and, as in the Stereophile review above, the measurements always look a bit dodgy - although I am sure they are really good on paper in terms of control of directivity.

Horn enthusiasts are always talking about dynamics. I can't help but think they are comparing horns against 'legacy' systems that are already pretty poor in terms of dynamics. Against active speakers, there wouldn't be any difference.

So your saying "modern" systems have closed the gap, I don't think so but possibly if your ready to lay out $80k. Keith and I have already been down that road over the Kii's
And to me nothing sounds as "real" as good horns, for exactly the reasons LG listed in that Stereophile review "three-dimensional imaging, impressive transparency, ambience retrieval, capacity to "disappear," and fine timbral detail" along with micro/macro dynamics. Nothing I've heard has been able to reproduce the sound of live music, true Hi Fidelity as well.
Great panels come close, specially in the transparency and detail areas, but usually suffer a bit in the dynamics area in comparison, plus many just couldn't go loud without damage.

Keith, anything your active spraying fart boxes can do, I maintain a modern active horn loaded design will do better.

 

[Sal1950]

Nice set of Synthesis 1400's for sale on ebay for $4998,88
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-Synthes...rs-/132080557295?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

Hey, that's for economy shipping, you can afford it.
Don't worry, be happy.

 

[Purité Audio]

So your saying "modern" systems have closed the gap, I don't think so but possibly if your ready to lay out $80k. Keith and I have already been down that road over the Kii's
And to me nothing sounds as "real" as good horns, for exactly the reasons LG listed in that Stereophile review "three-dimensional imaging, impressive transparency, ambience retrieval, capacity to "disappear," and fine timbral detail" along with micro/macro dynamics. Nothing I've heard has been able to reproduce the sound of live music, true Hi Fidelity as well.
Great panels come close, specially in the transparency and detail areas, but usually suffer a bit in the dynamics area in comparison, plus many just couldn't go loud without damage.

Keith, anything your active spraying fart boxes can do, I maintain a modern active horn loaded design will do better.

I have both here Sal, front loaded four way horns , rrp £120k weight one ton and arguably the most advanced active monitors , although technically the Beolabs are 'technology ' leaders.
I terms of imagery the Kii's are way ahead, if that's what you mean by 'disappearing' , fine timbal detail,micro/macro that doesn't really mean anything does it, but in term of hearing 'more' again the Kii's are ahead, panels I have to discount entirely they just sound fuzzy to me,indistinct perhaps I just need to hear a pair in a properly treated room.
In terms of scale ,well the larger/taller/wider the speakers the larger the image, if you listen to a 1930's WE cinema horn in a relatively small room their scale is amazing, as loudspeakers they are extremely coloured.
Ultimately you just have to choose your preference.
Keith

 

[Cosmik]

So horns give you the directivity control, and they are efficient. But, as the Stereophile review above says: "the JBL 1400 Array's cumulative spectral-decay plot is not as clean as I would have liked to see, presumably due to reflections of the driver outputs from the edges of the horns" - and the mid and treble anechoic plot is a long way off the flatness and smoothness that direct drivers give you. In other words, colouration. Some people don't seem to notice it, and some types of music don't show it up as clearly, but I think it is always there.

 

[Sal1950]

Maybe it's your product line and you need to sell better horns

 

[Sal1950]

So horns give you the directivity control, and they are efficient. But, as the Stereophile review above says: "the JBL 1400 Array's cumulative spectral-decay plot is not as clean as I would have liked to see, presumably due to reflections of the driver outputs from the edges of the horns" - and the mid and treble anechoic plot is a long way off the flatness and smoothness that direct drivers give you. In other words, colouration. Some people don't seem to notice it, and some types of music don't show it up as clearly, but I think it is always there.

Yes that's true, none are perfect or we wouldn't be having these discussions. Some people also just don't seem to notice all they've given up in the pro columns that have been already detailed. Beyond that what the measurement shows and what Larry reports hearing are at odds?" impressive accuracy of midrange timbre" "no sign of nasality or throatiness" "smooth frequency response" "naturalness". I don't know, maybe Larry's just deaf and doesn't hear all that "coloration"?
I do know I'm sitting hear listening to my inexpensive HSU's playing a 24/96 of Santans Moonflower and it's sounds amazing.

 

[Cosmik]

Yes that's true, none are perfect or we wouldn't be having these discussions. Some people also just don't seem to notice all they've given up in the pro columns that have been already detailed. Beyond that what the measurement shows and what Larry reports hearing are at odds?" impressive accuracy of midrange timbre" "no sign of nasality or throatiness" "smooth frequency response" "naturalness". I don't know, maybe Larry's just deaf and doesn't hear all that "coloration"?
I do know I'm sitting hear listening to my inexpensive HSU's playing a 24/96 of Santans Moonflower and it's sounds amazing.

If someone criticises measurements, the listening impressions are quoted to counter it, and vice versa! I have heard horn colouration, and the measurements always seem to be a lot more 'interesting' than direct drivers. If I was short on amplifier power I would have to use them, but it seems to me that (since the 1960s?) we are not short on amplifier power.

 

[Purité Audio]

The Cessaro horns we sell, use TAD compression drivers , I believe they measure extremely well and we're developed for 'pro'audio , as I mentioned there are so many implementations that each has to be discussed individually.
JBL for instance choose compression driver /horn sometimes horizontal married to a bass reflex bass, some designers wouldn't use bass reflex married so closely to the horn midrange , the most successful implementation I have heard are five way front loaded Cessaro 'Gammas' if you have the space and the cash.
Keith