• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Complaint thread about speaker measurements

laudio

Active Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
291
Likes
294
No real complaints here, waiting for bigger and better passive speaker reviews.

Also - anyone saying this site is looking for handouts, the guy bought a 100K speaker measuring system to post this stuff. Kind of crazy if you ask me but I'll keep reading!
 

digicidal

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 6, 2019
Messages
1,982
Likes
4,841
Location
Sin City, NV
They will be fine, as long as they don't mind extremely high power, high frequency impulses...
Of course they mind... I said they were my class-D amps right? ;) Just keep that hi-res stuff away from them and they'll be fine however (neither my ears nor the speaker can tell the difference anyway). None of them have let the magic smoke escape yet... and some of them are close to 6 years old already (younger than all my other amps but probably middle aged for their class). LOL
 

raif71

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 7, 2019
Messages
2,342
Likes
2,542
I don't have any complaints per say about speaker measurements but what I can share is that it is not my cup of tea so I don't even read the speaker reviews and measurements. I don't find it as stimulating as when the review is about DAC and amp which I try to read every one of them. I applaud @amirm dedication to this section and I'll probably read speaker review if it was reviewing my active monitors :) (Presonus Eris E5 XT).
 

Absolute

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
1,085
Likes
2,131
Power handling on expensive passive loudspeakers is most important. Expensive passive speakers are likely to have high powered amplification attached and are more likely to be used at higher levels for longer periods, often with dynamic and transient-content music.

Many years ago, I was tasked with inspecting damaged drivers for warranty claims to make determinations on whether they were factory faults (and covered under warranty) or user abuse (not covered under warranty). The more expensive the speaker, the more likely the "audiophiles" would damage them. There were always the guys who got drunk and played their $5000 speakers all night with huge power amps and just plain cooked them, but it was the guys who should have known better who vaporized tweeter lead-in wires regularly or damaged a woofer with their latest "torture test" CD. You can imagine the conversations. "but it was only a few seconds" or "I paid $5K for these, they are supposed to be the best" etc.

Midranges and tweeters in better speakers are generally faster and lighter, use thinner gauge VC wire, aluminium wire, edge wound copper ribbon, light weight formers and small magnet structures. Ferrofluid is rarely used these days and drivers have less thermal mass for "riding out" dissipation events. In addition, proper midranges are less common and tweeters are being asked to do duty much further down the spectrum than they once did. That means more dissipation and potentially more failures.

Woofers on the other hand have improved out of sight. It's really hard to destroy modern woofers. Better adhesives, exotic former materials and tighter tolerances mean much better usable lives.

It's all these small speakers with or without amplification where the rated power handling needs to be looked at. Any speaker can take transient events 10 or 20 times (or more) over their continuous rating, but we are seeing speaker ratings that bear no relationship whatsoever to their true capability. A 1.5" voice coil can only get rid of so much heat, and it isn't that much to be honest. The blatant deception in the speaker market needs to called for what it is.

So recommendations on fitness for purpose based on testing should be addressed. Non-destructive limit testing will help, if it can be done at a reasonable cost.
You are presenting valid points, but I disagree that it's necessary for Amir to test those things in order to have a complete review. A general comment about the obvious limitations of small speakers/drivers in general is enough to inform people about the suitability for their particular use. Maybe a bolded comment like "suitable for; desktop speaker/near-field/far-field with limited bass" etc in the review could be a good remedy for those who have absolutely no idea how to determine the intended purpose of a speaker by looking at it?

Making a few graphs with different spl levels to show compression won't stop certain idiots from trying to achieve rock concert levels with their fancy Sonus Faber Olympica 1 when drunk, so what would it achieve to know at which spl the speaker compress?
And what does it mean in practice? How do users translate the numbers into something that makes sense to them regarding their living room? What difference will a rating of 95 dB continuously mean over a 93 dB?

Take the Kii Three, it's (was?) rated to 20 hz (93 dB). That means it'll compress/self-limit at any level above that in the lower frequencies. The speaker is rated for 115 dB or so in max peak levels (averaged probably from 50-5000hz) and about 110 dB short-term and 105 dB long-term.
What does that mean? 93 dB at 20 hz is barely audible, and you would need probably 120-130 dB capacity at 20 hz for a linear spl capability at rock concert levels, which no normal speaker (very few subs even) is capable of. So we know it's not suited for large venues or even big rooms, but how would we know if it's enough for our particular room, taking roomgain into consideration?

If you have no idea of how the room response look and have no idea what 95 dB translates to in your room, how is a 95 dB rating any helpful? It's not, it's only helpful for those who are interested enough to know what it means. And those of us who knows what it means also knows that no small speaker will ever be good enough for sustained high-level spl, even if this particular small speaker is a little bit better than that particular small speaker.

What you are really asking for is a informative rating/specification system for the benefit of the customers so that they know the true specifications/limits of the speakers. In my eyes that's a good idea, but I think we should put that obligation to present that information on the manufacturers and not Amir alone. If any EU citizen is reading this, lobby the EU parlament to demand a tire-like specification label to go with our speakers!

Long story short, I agree with the intention of pushing the manufacturers to reveal relevant info, I just don't think it's necessary, wise or particularly helpful to put this burden on Amir.
 

hardisj

Major Contributor
Reviewer
Joined
Jul 18, 2019
Messages
2,907
Likes
13,914
Location
North Alabama
What you are really asking for is a informative rating/specification system for the benefit of the customers so that they know the true specifications/limits of the speakers. In my eyes that's a good idea, but I think we should put that obligation to present that information on the manufacturers and not Amir alone.

I don't disagree with your post. However, I wanted to point this out...

By the same logic, shouldn't the mfg also provide us with the spinorama data? We all concede that's most important.
 

Absolute

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 5, 2017
Messages
1,085
Likes
2,131
I don't disagree with your post. However, I wanted to point this out...

By the same logic, shouldn't the mfg also provide us with the spinorama data? We all concede that's most important.
But of course! :D
 

bobbooo

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 30, 2019
Messages
1,479
Likes
2,079
Not a complaint, just a possible source of clarification on measurement methodology. Some of you might have already seen this, but I came across a whole list of clearly defined standards by the AES for audio electronics and acoustics measurements, experiments etc. on their site: http://www.aes.org/publications/standards/

As Sean Olive's AES profile says he's on the Standards Committee for Loudspeaker Modeling and Measurement, I think we can safely assume he used these standards when taking the measurements of speakers his preference formula is based on, and so following these same AES standards would produce measurements and so predicted preference scores from his formula that correlate most highly with actual preference. Here's that particular standards document: http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/aessc/20200129/aes-05id-1997-s2019-i.pdf. Maybe these standards could be used in conjunction with / to clarify parts of the CEA 2034 standard that seem ambiguous or lacking.

I'm not an AES member, but if anyone who is wants to have a read of it, it may contain some useful information. These documents also might come in handy:
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/aessc/20200129/aes02-2012-i.pdf
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/aessc/20200129/aes56-2008-r2019-i.pdf
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/aessc/20200129/aes-01id-2012-r2017-i.pdf
(The last one probably isn't relevant as it seems to be about plane-wave tubes, but does mention mic placement in the contents so might have some useful nuggets of info.)
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,452
Likes
15,798
Location
Oxfordshire
Not a complaint but I was chatting on the phone yesterday to a good friend who is an engineering consultant designing drive units and complete loudspeakers for OEMs.
He does this from fEA of the structure of drivers, magnetic circuits and cabinet. He then builds and measures prototypes.
He had told me around 20 years ago that a superbly engineered cabinet with modest but properly engineered drivers sounded better than SOTA drivers in a poor cabinet.
He confirmed that this is not evident from measurement but is listening. He had built prototypes to test this.
He calculates cabinet emission at the design stage and measures it using laser vibrometer on the prototypes and calculates the cabinet sound radiation. Any is bad but is not separated from the overall sound of the speaker during any normal measurement of the speaker.

I would say all the best sounding (IMO) speakers I have heard are those where a lot of engineering effort has gone into minimising spurious radiation from the cabinet, not surprising in the case of large ones when one considers how much bigger the area of the cabinet is than that of the driver cones.
 

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,288
Likes
12,192
I would say all the best sounding (IMO) speakers I have heard are those where a lot of engineering effort has gone into minimising spurious radiation from the cabinet, not surprising in the case of large ones when one considers how much bigger the area of the cabinet is than that of the driver cones.

My personal impressions can flip either way on that depending on the speakers being compared.

I tried to downsize from big floorstanding Thiel CS 3.7s. One of the speakers I tried, and bought, was the Harbeth SuperHL5plus.

I thought the Harbeths sounded wonderful - clear, generally neutral spectral balance, but also rich and more full sounding than many other speakers.

When I compared them directly to my Thiels playing the same tracks I ended up preferring the Thiels. The Thiels come from the "reduce influence of the cabinet" school and they sounded quite big and rich but also more clean and precise. The Harbeths seemed to have a sort of subtle density or texture throughout the sound which for lack of other explanation I attribute to the influence of the cabinet design. The same tracks (e.g. an acoustic guitar quartet) on the Thiels seemed to leave the space between the guitars cleaner with all the acoustic energery tightly organized densly to the location of the guitars. So it sounded that much more "real" vs the slightly "thickened" quality pervading the Harbeth sound. It was subtle, but distinct. But then, the Thiels also presented a tonality and other sonic characteristics that I already loved, so the Thiels won out overall.

That said, I would still prefer those Harbeths (and the similarly vibrating Devore O speakers) over quite a number of other speakers with highly damped enclosures. For me it comes down to how it all works out in the mix of the design decisions and what artifacts will detract from my enjoyment and which ones may even add a bit.
 

napilopez

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
Messages
2,146
Likes
8,711
Location
NYC
I agree. One of the reasons why small plastic monitors sound horrible, even though their measurements might be acceptable. One of those smallish is sitting near me - JBL Control 1 Pro. No serious listening is possible with this thing.

Well, that specific JBL is one of the worst measuring so far...

Not a complaint but I was chatting on the phone yesterday to a good friend who is an engineering consultant designing drive units and complete loudspeakers for OEMs.
He does this from fEA of the structure of drivers, magnetic circuits and cabinet. He then builds and measures prototypes.
He had told me around 20 years ago that a superbly engineered cabinet with modest but properly engineered drivers sounded better than SOTA drivers in a poor cabinet.
He confirmed that this is not evident from measurement but is listening. He had built prototypes to test this.
He calculates cabinet emission at the design stage and measures it using laser vibrometer on the prototypes and calculates the cabinet sound radiation. Any is bad but is not separated from the overall sound of the speaker during any normal measurement of the speaker.

I would say all the best sounding (IMO) speakers I have heard are those where a lot of engineering effort has gone into minimising spurious radiation from the cabinet, not surprising in the case of large ones when one considers how much bigger the area of the cabinet is than that of the driver cones.

Hmm well while that sounds intellectually appealing, isn't much of what we've been discussing with regards to the spinorama and speaker measurements that audible resonances will show up in a spinorama? I.e. A speaker can have a super resonant cabinet but if the resonances are EQd out, they shouldn't be audible? I've seen no evidence to the contrary so far., even though it seems to me like a non-resonant cabinet makes sense. On the other hand, for a passive system, designing a cabinet to resonances will undoubtedly help achieve a flatter response.

Still, it's interesting how different companies approach cabinets. Perhaps an interesting case study can be seen with Q Acoustics, which seems to be particularly focused on this issue. Their flagship bookshelf speaker has a ridiculously thick cabinet made up of three layers of MDF, separated by a non-setting gel that further dampens vibrations. Then they have a stand designed to further minimize any extraneous radiation. They talk about their approach to reducing resonances at length in their white paper (PDF). Subjectively, I thought the Concept 300 were some of the best speakers I heard last year, but that was not in my own home.

It's interesting is seeing how two of their cheaper models measure. The 3020i and Concept 20 are two similarly sized models that seem to use very similar drivers, if not identical ones On the whole, they measure very similarly, showing very similar trends .

But while the 3020i mainly uses bracing to reduce resonances, the Concept 20 (the precursor to the Concept 300 above), uses two layers of MDF and one of the non-setting gel. You can see that the two speakers measure very similarly, but the Concept 20 is clearly cleaner.

3020i Horizontal.png


Concept 20 Horizontal.png


Of course, some of that smoothness may be due to the different cabinet shape, but the different "smoothness" of the lines is really quite notable, despite using the same measurement setup and windowing. Aside from a few high-Q differences, it almost looks as if the Concept 20 were just the 3020i with extra smoothing applied in REW :).

That leads me to believe the cabinet is the primary factor affecting their differences. While normally I'm not concerned about such little squiggles in the 3020i, one would presume the Concept 20 would sound better from these two graphs, and it does, even if the difference is subtle.
 

sergeauckland

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
3,457
Likes
9,146
Location
Suffolk UK
Not a complaint but I was chatting on the phone yesterday to a good friend who is an engineering consultant designing drive units and complete loudspeakers for OEMs.
He does this from fEA of the structure of drivers, magnetic circuits and cabinet. He then builds and measures prototypes.
He had told me around 20 years ago that a superbly engineered cabinet with modest but properly engineered drivers sounded better than SOTA drivers in a poor cabinet.
He confirmed that this is not evident from measurement but is listening. He had built prototypes to test this.
He calculates cabinet emission at the design stage and measures it using laser vibrometer on the prototypes and calculates the cabinet sound radiation. Any is bad but is not separated from the overall sound of the speaker during any normal measurement of the speaker.

I would say all the best sounding (IMO) speakers I have heard are those where a lot of engineering effort has gone into minimising spurious radiation from the cabinet, not surprising in the case of large ones when one considers how much bigger the area of the cabinet is than that of the driver cones.
I think there's a lot to this,^ . The 'speakers I currently use have separate enclosures for the three drivers, and those other 'speakers I've found particularly satisfying like the KEF 105.2, KEF 107.2 and Meridian DSP 8000 all had separate enclosures at least for the bass. This means each enclosure can be made very stiff, which pushes the box panel resonance well above the frequencies of the driver's operating band.

Having said that, I rather like Harbeths that work on a different principle, but also minimise cabinet resonances by converting sharp (high Q) resonances to low amplitude wide-band (low Q) resonances which aren't as problematic.

S
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,452
Likes
15,798
Location
Oxfordshire
That said, I would still prefer those Harbeths (and the similarly vibrating Devore O speakers) over quite a number of other speakers with highly damped enclosures. For me it comes down to how it all works out in the mix of the design decisions and what artifacts will detract from my enjoyment and which ones may even add a bit.
What???
The Harbeths have very carefully engineered enclosures with thoroughly researched and very substantial damping.
Know nothing about DeVore but Harbeths have thoroughly engineered enclosures to only radiate at unimportant frequency. This was a crucial aspect of the whole BBC approach and they probably were the first to try to optimise the cabinet design for best sound rather than just putting units in a box.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/rdreport_1977_03
https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/rdreport_1949_39
 

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,288
Likes
12,192
What???
The Harbeths have very carefully engineered enclosures with thoroughly researched and very substantial damping.
Know nothing about DeVore but Harbeths have thoroughly engineered enclosures to only radiate at unimportant frequency. This was a crucial aspect of the whole BBC approach and they probably were the first to try to optimise the cabinet design for best sound rather than just putting units in a box.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/rdreport_1977_03
https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/rdreport_1949_39

Hi Frank,

Yes I'm aware of the engineering claims and goals for how the Harbeth speakers are "tuned" to vibrate in a particular way that makes it invisible to the ear. In other words, many people harp on Harbeths for "just letting the box ring" but Alan Shaw points out, no, it's done in a very deliberate way to actually remove the audibility of the cabinet.

I think it works very well.

However, I do hear the Harbeths as sounding particularly rich and full vs many skinnier super-damped speakers with a similar frequency range, and I'm not sure that's completely down to a frequency response deviation. (I don't have it handy, but one lab measured the SuperHL5plus with the remark that it was the most flat/linear speaker from top to bottom they'd ever measured. I also note that while JA of Stereophile summed up in his measurements: "Other than that lively enclosure, which is a deliberate design decision—note AD's comment about "the consistently truthful, present manner with which they reproduce singing voices"—the Harbeth Super HL5plus's measured performance is beyond reproach.).

But the difference I heard between the Thiels and the Harbeth (and the Harbeth vs some other highly damped designs) *seemed* to have the character of "hearing the box a bit." I don't know for sure, which is why I put it: "for lack of other explanation I attribute to the influence of the cabinet design."

Could be some other explanation I guess. I mentioned in thread (this one?) that I'd recently auditioned the bigger Harbeth 40 speaker and it produced one of the most startling "out of the box" 3-dimensional-sounding imaging and density I've ever encountered.
 

krabapple

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Messages
3,193
Likes
3,754
Not a complaint but I was chatting on the phone yesterday to a good friend who is an engineering consultant designing drive units and complete loudspeakers for OEMs.
He does this from fEA of the structure of drivers, magnetic circuits and cabinet. He then builds and measures prototypes.
He had told me around 20 years ago that a superbly engineered cabinet with modest but properly engineered drivers sounded better than SOTA drivers in a poor cabinet.
He confirmed that this is not evident from measurement but is listening. He had built prototypes to test this.

Audible cabinet resonance not evident from measurement....I wonder what Drs. Toole and Olive would say about that.
 

rjsalvi

New Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2020
Messages
3
Likes
1
Hi Amir,

Nice site. Just a couple of suggestions:

* it might be interesting to post the ambient temperature and relative humidity at the time of the test. Cone materials (paper, treated or not, come to mind), cabinet materials (wood, MDF, plastic, etc.), box stuffing (polyfill, rockwool, fiberglass, etc.) and even motors (voice coil heat generation), can behave a bit differently in varying climates. Not mission critical, just interesting.
* perhaps one measurement can be included based on a mfrs. recommendation of speaker placement and accompanying listener position. IOW, if a mfr. specifies the optimal listening position is 15 degrees off-axis, it would be a handy data point to know what you'd measured according to the mfrs. recommendation

Beyond that, very nice work.
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,124
Likes
12,314
Location
London
What???
The Harbeths have very carefully engineered enclosures with thoroughly researched and very substantial damping.
Know nothing about DeVore but Harbeths have thoroughly engineered enclosures to only radiate at unimportant frequency. This was a crucial aspect of the whole BBC approach and they probably were the first to try to optimise the cabinet design for best sound rather than just putting units in a box.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/rdreport_1977_03
https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/rdreport_1949_39
I am not sure I would go as far as ‘substantial’

measuring a few Harbeths the treble seems to diminish very quickly with distance.
keith
 
Top Bottom