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Complaint thread about speaker measurements

I performed a stepped frequency response of the JBL 305P versus level and the curves visually were identical which supports what you state. I had to wear ear plugs for the highest levels and this is a modest bookshelf speaker.
Amir, would you expect the same results for say the KEF LS50? From your review:
Turning up the volume resulted in distortion as I could visibly see the little woofer trying to keep up. Definitely not a good choice for a large space.
It would be nice to have some guidance (measurement or otherwise) on loudness capability in the reviews if at all possible. I can see it helping the membership determine if a given speaker will work satisfactorily in their space and at the distance they intend to listen at.
 
You have a lot of valid points which I understand and often agree with. But I also note that the tone of your postings when you disagree is not friendly any more. It started with class D amps and continues here and does not help to keep discussions on a good level.

I thought long before I clicked the Post reply button since I value you high but I think it should be said.


Not unfriendly either.

In order to avoid apparent misunderstandings, resorting to a 'matter-of-fact' approach can be appropriate.
 
It would be nice to have some guidance (measurement or otherwise) on loudness capability in the reviews if at all possible.
I understand and it is a point of curiosity on my end as well. I have spent many hours on it as a matter of fact. But I keep running into roadblocks. Klippel has a great method for assessing max SPL limiting it by THD and even temperature of the voice coil! Alas, it too required a license to run. Their standard test mechanism uses fixed signals so it is not like Audio Precision where I can just set up a level sweep. Without that optional module, it insists on frequency sweep and only that sweep. So something will be coming but just not right now.
 
Not unfriendly either.

In order to avoid apparent misunderstandings, resorting to a 'matter-of-fact' approach can be appropriate.
I'd like to disagree. As the Germans say "the tone makes the music" (literal translation). Just stating the facts in a short handed way is not enough, we should always strive to do this in a friendly way even when we have to type a little more (like me on this bloody virtual smartphone keyboard which drives me crazy:mad:):).
 
Alas, it too required a license to run.

Thanks Amir, let us know if you want us to hound Klippel to hook you up with licenses for these measurement suites, lol.
 
I understand and it is a point of curiosity on my end as well. I have spent many hours on it as a matter of fact. But I keep running into roadblocks. Klippel has a great method for assessing max SPL limiting it by THD and even temperature of the voice coil! Alas, it too required a license to run.
How much do they charge for this license? And would you also need to buy additional equipment?
 
I believe you cannot "test" or "review", let-alone rate loudspeakers, without determining their capabilities in terms of level (SPL), power compression behaviour and power handling- especially with the myriad miniature speakers people are buying (and you are reviewing) as main speakers these days. Many are simply not fit for the task and your "laser focus" on CEA 2034 spinorama measurements although extremely cool, tells them nothing about those aforementioned attributes.

Speaking only for myself, I have no interest in maximum SPL, power compression, or power handling limit measurements from Amir. I have a very large listening room, but I use appropriate speakers for the room. I assume anyone knowledgable enough to read Amir's reviews is also knowledgable enough not to use a pair of mini-monitors to try and fill 5000 cubic feet with 100db average volume at a 12 foot listening distance. I am interested in the type of results Amir is producing, and those and his Class D amplifier results are why I'm a forum donor.
 
How much do they charge for this license? And would you also need to buy additional equipment?
No, I have the hardware (KA3). The costs are eye watering for software licenses:

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That is nearly $3,500 for the software option there. These other alternatives are not cheap either:

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So we are talking $2,000+.
 
Speaking only for myself, I have no interest in maximum SPL, power compression, or power handling limit measurements from Amir. I have a very large listening room, but I use appropriate speakers for the room. I assume anyone knowledgable enough to read Amir's reviews is also knowledgable enough not to use a pair of mini-monitors to try and fill 5000 cubic feet with 100db average volume at a 12 foot listening distance. I am interested in the type of results Amir is producing, and those and his Class D amplifier results are why I'm a forum donor.

I don't assume the general membership can understand the raw graphs that comprise most of a Klippel based review or the relationship between loudspeaker ratings and the listening environment. The membership has moved on from those days.
 
Perhaps we need to do a poll to see how many people want Amir to purchase these add-ons?

3 options: yes/no/indifferent

Perhaps a group crowd-funding effort, in case majority of users agree with the poll?

EDIT:
Poll was created. Link

10 votes as of 2020-01-29 10pm PST
15 votes as of 2020-01-29 11pm PST
22 votes as of 2020-01-30 12am PST
28 votes as of 2020-01-30 01am PST
52 votes as of 2020-01-30 10am PST
57 votes as of 2020-01-30 10pm PST
62 votes as of 2020-01-31 12am PST
 
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I don't assume the general membership can understand the raw graphs that comprise most of a Klippel based review or the relationship between loudspeaker ratings and the listening environment. The membership has moved on from those days.
What days? I have only been doing this testing for three weeks and interest is huge in them.
 
I can understand that. It's just a bit of shame because, when making a purchase decision for a loudspeaker, as far as performance is concerned, typically there are two main questions: (1) does it sound good enough and (2) is it loud enough..

In fairness, much of #2 can be determined by examining the driver sizes and cabinet volume. There are exceptions - JBL 705 is an example of exploiting technology to expand SPL capability for a given cabinet volume; a speaker with an abnormally low tweeter crossover and a flat waveguide, or an acoustic 1st order tweeter crossover, may have less output capability than estimated by eye - but there isn't actually that huge a variation in output capability among drivers used in given price classes.

That's not to say that Soundstage style linearity difference measurements are not of interest. However, a pricey Klippel robot is not necessary for such measurements. The deliverable is just a division operation between measurements at 2 sound levels. I think the highest and best use of the Klippel is to get a detailed picture of the radiation pattern around a speaker: spins, polar maps, etc.
 
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As much of a proponent I am for the extra data, I feel like the horse is being put in front of the carriage here. I think right now everyone needs to take a step back and just focus on one thing at a time. Let’s all get comfy with the spin data and methods before asking Amir for anything else and moving on to “bigger and better” things.

Just my $0.02 here.

(To be clear, if Amir already had the modules he needs then that’s one thing. But he doesn’t and it’s pretty clear that not all of the information regarding the spinorama data is fully comprehended by all parties just yet. No need to pile on other unknowns at this very moment if it also means another expenditure. I don’t see that as beneficial right now. Maybe down the line.)
 
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What days? I have only been doing this testing for three weeks and interest is huge in them.


The days when audio science/physics was discussed more than which piece of gear sounds better.
 
I'd like to disagree. As the Germans say "the tone makes the music" (literal translation). Just stating the facts in a short handed way is not enough, we should always strive to do this in a friendly way even when we have to type a little more (like me on this bloody virtual smartphone keyboard which drives me crazy:mad:):).

I was talking about a fall-back position to avoid misunderstandings, not normal social discourse. Of course there are cultural differences and within - culture differences. The Dutch make a point of removing superfluity from discussion. Australians are considered as outspoken by some.

Looking from another viewpoint and this could be a perception: https://www.macmillandictionary.com...-used-to-describe-someone-who-is-easily-upset
 
I was talking about a fall-back position to avoid misunderstandings, not normal social discourse. Of course there are cultural differences and within - culture differences. The Dutch make a point of removing superfluity from discussion. Australians are considered as outspoken by some.
So I hope you accept it as well as you dish it out when I say the comments were unkind, unfriendly, unhelpful and insulting to work that I toil to do every day of the week.

These last few weeks have been a mix of joy in testing speakers in peace here, and then facing a barrage of complaints, objections and personal insults.
 
So I hope you accept it as well as you dish it out when I say the comments were unkind, unfriendly, unhelpful and insulting to work that I toil to do every day of the week.

These last few weeks have been a mix of joy in testing speakers in peace here, and then facing a barrage of complaints, objections and personal insults.

Please point out what disturbed you. If you can show my comments to be wrong in a personal sense, in keeping with the thread title or any reasonable fashion, I will happily withdraw them. I can take it.
 
Please point out what disturbed you. If you can show my comments to be wrong in a personal sense, in keeping with the thread title or any reasonable fashion, I will happily withdraw them. I can take it.
I am talking about John's comments which you were defending. I just looked and you gave him likes for all of them so I assume he is speaking for you as well.
 
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