Comparison of USB inputs between a converter Topping D10s and a DAC Eversolo Z8

[Moxalain]

Hello

I had some fun experimenting my Eversol Z8 with my Topping D10s.

I plugged a USB cable betwen PC and D10s.
Then I connected the D10 to the Z8 with a coaxial cable.
I listened music. OK.

Then I plugged the USB cable directly into the Z8 to compare.
I'm amazed!
I much prefer the Topping's USB connection with the coaxial connection to the Z8. The entry USB of Z8 is poor !

But on paper, the D10s - XMOS XU208 ES9038Q2M is less impressive than the Z8 - USB XMOS XU316 ESS ES9038Pro, no ?.
Why is that?

I need to use a DAC's USB input with my PC, which DAC has an excellent USB input ?
Or an excellent USB-to-coaxial converter ?

Thank you very much.
Have a nice day
Alain Bordeaux - France

 

[somebodyelse]

But on paper, the D10s - XMOS XU208 ES9038Q2M is less impressive than the Z8 - USB XMOS XU316 ESS ES9038Pro, no ?

You aren't using the ES9038Q2M in the D10s, just the XU208 to do the conversion from USB to S/PDIF. I don't think we know the details of how S/PDIF gets to the ES9038Pro in the Z8 compared to the USB - it could go direct, via some other receiver, or via the XU316 like the USB does. Comparing the XMOS chips is a bit like comparing a 12th gen i3 to a 13th gen i5 - it makes no difference to the program you're running so long as they're both fast enough.

The D10s coax output is transformer isolated - see the block labelled 'Pulse' next to the yellow connector in this post. Depending on how you did the test this may have broken a path for ground-related noise between the PC and the Z8.

Sometimes we see a difference in measured performance between different digital inputs in DACs, indicating some mistake on the part of the designer/manufacturer. Whether such a difference exists on the Z8 I don't know.

However unless you did your testing with suitable controls (blind, enough repeats to be statistically significant etc.) it's as likely that the difference was in your head not in the electronics.

 

[Moxalain]

Hi

I'm just surprised that the D10s (Amir really likes it and I bought it after reading his article) inserted between the PC and the Z8's USB port is better than its direct USB input.

Since watching the forum and YouTube, I've learned a lot. I wasn't familiar with DDCs that explain the principle of digital-to-digital conversion.

The advantage of my post is that it's opened up avenues I was unaware of; that's the benefit of sharing in a forum.

My aging Z8 must be worth €500 on the used market, so I need to find a DDC in that price range (or less). Any DDCs you'd recommend?

Next step, probably the Eversolo Z10, and a fresh start, better

 

[Janck O'Neill]

Hi

I'm just surprised that the D10s (Amir really likes it and I bought it after reading his article) inserted between the PC and the Z8's USB port is better than its direct USB input.

Since watching the forum and YouTube, I've learned a lot. I wasn't familiar with DDCs that explain the principle of digital-to-digital conversion.

The advantage of my post is that it's opened up avenues I was unaware of; that's the benefit of sharing in a forum.

My aging Z8 must be worth €500 on the used market, so I need to find a DDC in that price range (or less). Any DDCs you'd recommend?

Next step, probably the Eversolo Z10, and a fresh start, better

I’ve had a similar experience - the Z8 sounds worse when connected directly via USB than when using an optical connection through the SMSL PO100. I’ll keep testing it, but that was my first impression.

 

[RandomEar]

Honestly: This is extremely unlikely. It's a digital connection - it either works, or it doesn't. Unless there's some form of DSP / digital EQ involved in the USB to S/PDIF converter or one of the inpus of the Z8 is broken / implemented incorrectly, you're listening to the exact same digital signal and it will sound 100% the same.

It's much more likely that your testing is flawed: Doing sighted testing with a couple minutes of switching time between inputs does not lead to reliable results. If you want to be sure, don't rely on your ears. Use an ADC like your sound card, measure both signal paths and compare the resuls using Delta Wave.

 

[Janck O'Neill]

Honestly: This is extremely unlikely. It's a digital connection - it either works, or it doesn't. Unless there's some form of DSP / digital EQ involved in the USB to S/PDIF converter or one of the inpus of the Z8 is broken / implemented incorrectly, you're listening to the exact same digital signal and it will sound 100% the same.

It's much more likely that your testing is flawed: Doing sighted testing with a couple minutes of switching time between inputs does not lead to reliable results. If you want to be sure, don't rely on your ears. Use an ADC like your sound card, measure both signal paths and compare the resuls using Delta Wave.

Embarrassing as it is to admit, I have no idea how I could even take those measurements - I’ve never done anything like that. I described my experience in this post: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eversolo-z8-dac-amp-review.41512/post-2453656 And the more I think about it, the more it seems that everything comes down to the PO100 rather than the Z8 or my old Hegel. It almost feels like the PO100 has some kind of 'filter', because the change it introduces is similar with both the Z8 and the Hegel.

 

[peterq]

If you check the implementation of xmos -> spdif from d10s/d10b, you will find they did pretty good, the crystal are ndk 2520sda.
The only thing is the power supply, 5v from usb and using a switching chip to convert to 3.3v, but I don't think the noise came from here if you check the measurement.
The software is very stable, that's very important. If I would like to get a upgrade, I will choose u90.

 

[SanojS]

Honestly: This is extremely unlikely. It's a digital connection - it either works, or it doesn't. Unless there's some form of DSP / digital EQ involved in the USB to S/PDIF converter or one of the inpus of the Z8 is broken / implemented incorrectly, you're listening to the exact same digital signal and it will sound 100% the same.

It's much more likely that your testing is flawed: Doing sighted testing with a couple minutes of switching time between inputs does not lead to reliable results. If you want to be sure, don't rely on your ears. Use an ADC like your sound card, measure both signal paths and compare the resuls using Delta Wave.

Digital signals can also have issues, especially if they're electrically transmitted. Jitter, clocking issues, ground loop noise, etc. If the USB conversion isn't competently done, the result can be worse. I believe that can be the case here - the Z8 USB circuit isn't competently built and PC USB signals are known for being very noisy. It sounds to me like the D10's USB conversion circuit is much better at jitter control and ground loop isolation for example.

 

[voodooless]

Digital signals can also have issues, especially if they're electrically transmitted. Jitter, clocking issues, ground loop noise, etc. If the USB conversion isn't competently done, the result can be worse. I believe that can be the case here - the Z8 USB circuit isn't competently built and PC USB signals are known for being very noisy. It sounds to me like the D10's USB conversion circuit is much better at jitter control and ground loop isolation for example.

Nonsense. There is nothing wrong with the USB input of the Z8:

EverSolo Z8 DAC & Amp Review

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of the Zidoo EverSolo Z8 stereo balanced DAC and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $699. As you can tell this is not "yet another desktop DAC." A beautiful and responsive 3 inch LCD display can provide...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[SanojS]

Nonsense. There is nothing wrong with the USB input of the Z8:

EverSolo Z8 DAC & Amp Review

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of the Zidoo EverSolo Z8 stereo balanced DAC and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $699. As you can tell this is not "yet another desktop DAC." A beautiful and responsive 3 inch LCD display can provide...

www.audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 507999

Why are you saying nonsense, I was trying to make sense of his experience and coming with suggestions of what can be the cause.
Pffft. grow up.

 

[voodooless]

Why are you saying nonsense,

Because it demonstrably makes no sense…

 

[RandomEar]

Jitter and clocking issues exist, but USB audio transmission is asynchronous and the reviews show that the D10s and the Z8 both seem to have a competent DPLL implementation, so this isn't a concern in this case. The S/PDIF outputs of modern TVs show that jitter is also typically either a non-issue or you get repeated drop-outs. I have never heard of a case of audible levels of jitter without such obvious problems.

Ground noise can be a problem, especially on PC connections. But it's also immediatley audible even without any audio playing. There's no subtle change in sound or something - it's bad or it isn't there. It's also not a quality of digital signals - you'll get the same using RCA connections.

I still think it's fair to say that digital signals either immediately show problems (e.g. drop-outs or loud pops) or you'll get audibly transparent transmission.