Compact subwoofer to complement JBL 305P Mkii?

[Blumlein 88]

The JBL LSR310 is good in this sense. You feed XLR or TRS in, and it has outputs with the sub getting 80 hz and lower. The mains speakers get 80 hz and above. Also set up so you can use a pair of the 305s with one single 310 as it has outputs for each channel.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/3-series-mkii/lsr310s

$399 or sometimes a bit less at Sweetwater or Amazon.

Another option is getting a crossover like this $79 Behringer unit with XLR ins and outs. (I have not used this exact piece of gear). Then you can feed any sub without needing it to have outputs.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CX2310--behringer-super-by-pro-cx2310

Peavy and dBX also make similar units with more features for a little more money.

 

[stunta]

Yes, I was really tempted to get the matching sub from JBL, but its large size dissuaded me. It is relatively cheap, designed for the 3 series and thus easy to integrate.

If they'd made an 8" version, I would be all over it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes, I was really tempted to get the matching sub from JBL, but its large size dissuaded me. It is relatively cheap, designed for the 3 series and thus easy to integrate.

If they'd made an 8" version, I would be all over it.

Here are a couple 8" versions about the size you want. Never used either one, but they have the crossover inside and xlr outputs.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KRK8S2--krk-8s-8-inch-powered-studio-subwoofer

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HS8S--yamaha-hs8s-8-inch-powered-studio-subwoofer

 

[Soniclife]

Have you played with the room sim in REW? This will give you some clues as to where to try the sub(s).
Do the JBLs have high pass settings built in, I would assume they do, and also assume the topping has both outputs active at the same time. If both of these are true you can let your speakers high pass themselves, and the subs low pass themselves. If you are really lucky the speakers have delay settings, I think they might have.

 

[mitchco]

B&W's subs have historically not compared well to most other but I know they revamped their line last year so maybe they have improved.

Rythmik L12: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html

I have two of these XO'd at 40 Hz and time aligned with my JBL mains - small, discrete, extension to 13 Hz, sound great for music. Article on CA coming soon for a review...

Edit: Oops maybe too big? They are pretty discrete looking...

 

[March Audio]

In room response may deviate from stated specs (so it will go a bit lower). However, its stated SPL is 100 dB only, which means it lacks ideal headroom if you play louder than 75-80 dB (headroom of 20-25 dB is a safe margin).

There is a subjective listening here (Google translate):

https://m.bonedo.de/artikel/einzelansicht/genelec-7040a-test.html

Yes they are small and have a finite output level. I use 4 of them so it's not a problem for me.

I suppose if size is restricted as Stunts wishes then you may well run into this issue with most small subs.

 

[stunta]

Yes they are small and have a finite output level. I use 4 of them so it's not a problem for me.

I suppose if size is restricted as Stunts wishes then you may well run into this issue with most small subs.

I think @svart-hvitt is talking about the Genelec and you are talking about the B&W.

 

[stunta]

In case anyone is curious, the Topping DX7s does output to XLR and RCA simultaneously. I am going to try the B&W ASW608. Its more compact than the Genelec 7040A in terms of volume, extends lower (on paper) and costs about $200 USD less. I would have preferred the subwoofer to apply the crossover for the speakers as well, but hopefully I can integrate the B&Ws easily.

 

[jhaider]

In case anyone is curious, the Topping DX7s does output to XLR and RCA simultaneously.

Regardless, you'll get better results with a real crossover. An inexpensive unit that may even reduce your noise floor if your source outputs at consumer levels is the miniDSP 2x4 Balanced in a box.

Yes, you have to cut wires to use it.

 

[stunta]

Regardless, you'll get better results with a real crossover. An inexpensive unit that may even reduce your noise floor if your source outputs at consumer levels is the miniDSP 2x4 Balanced in a box.

Yes, you have to cut wires to use it.

The subwoofer has built-in crossovers for itself. How will external crossovers eliminate the internal ones unless setting them to a higher cutoff effectively takes them out of the circuit?

 

[Blumlein 88]

You might use something like these Shure High Pass filters inline for XLR. Put them on the main speakers and they'll roll off at 12 db/octave at roughly 100 hz. Then the roll off in the subs themselves would work. Kinda of pricey at $49.95 each. For that money you could buy one of those studio crossover boxes or the miniDSP unit.

https://www.amazon.com/Shure-A15HP-High-Pass-Filter/dp/B00075VQRO

You seem intent on small size. Is that a highly important criteria?

The Rhythmik Mitchco suggested is another good idea. Those servo subs are very good. A friend has the more expensive F12s and those are the best subs I've had hands on. The one Mitchco suggested isn't all that expensive, but isn't as small as you are looking to get.

 

[jhaider]

The subwoofer has built-in crossovers for itself. How will external crossovers eliminate the internal ones unless setting them to a higher cutoff effectively takes them out of the circuit?

Defeat the internal crossover in the sub, and use the miniDSP or similar processor to manage the bass going to the mains and subs, and smooth out the transition with EQ.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The ASW608 has a switch which lets you bypass the internal low pass filter. This would let you use an external crossover for the main speakers and the sub. Like the miniDSP or the Behringer studio crossover I mentioned.

Maybe that was another sub thread.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CX2310--behringer-super-by-pro-cx2310

 

[mitchco]

Defeat the internal crossover in the sub, and use the miniDSP or similar processor to manage the bass going to the mains and subs, and smooth out the transition with EQ.

Yes and time align the sub(s)! Even when sub(s) are in the same horizontal plain as the mains, they are typically are 3 to 5ms behind the mains time wise... Given sound travels roughly 1ft per ms, it is the visual equivalent of placing the subs 3 to 5 ft behind the mains. Sometimes I wonder if folks confuse this as saying "slow" bass...

 

[stunta]

That's a lot to absorb on a Friday night Thank you all for the guidance. It is neat that the ASW608 allows for disabling the internal crossover. I don't think the JBL 305Ps let me do that but if the internal crossover is digital, I am thinking it is effectively a no-op?

I will look into getting an external crossover. With something like the miniDSP which doesn't have XLR in/out, I am thinking RCA out from DAC to miniDSP, miniDSP to speakers (with adapters) and sub. Does that sound right? the miniDSP has the advantage of EQ and X-Over in one unit (and a DAC too! Would be interesting to measure) whereas the Behringer is a pure crossover unit but it has XLR connectors. Hmm... but I could continue to do the EQ in Roon as I am doing now. How do I decide?

As for time-alignment, I will look into how to do that with REW after I have measured and applied room EQ. I will probably make this worse to begin with, but hopefully figure it out eventually.

You seem intent on small size. Is that a highly important criteria?

Yes, this is the living room system where we host people and its also where I prefer to sit and relax with my music. Space is at a premium. The basement is not ready so this is my primary system for now. I am trying to maximize sound quality while maintaining aesthetics to an acceptable level for peaceful and prosperous household

 

[stunta]

If the miniDSP is going to do A-to-D and D-to-A with DSP in between, given it also has digital inputs, it should render a separate DAC unit redundant regardless of how well the external DAC measures because the miniDSP DAC would be the bottleneck in that case. This is a bit off-topic, but does this make sense?

 

[March Audio]

If the miniDSP is going to do A-to-D and D-to-A with DSP in between, given it also has digital inputs, it should render a separate DAC unit redundant regardless of how well the external DAC measures because the miniDSP DAC would be the bottleneck in that case. This is a bit off-topic, but does this make sense?

I have a mini dsp 2x4HD which I was going to be using for speaker DSP but subjectively I wasnt entirely happy with the sound. This could be nothing but a typical subjective misinterpretation however. I will perform some measurements of it. As you say there is no point in having another DAC prior to this if its the way you want to go.

All these sorts of potential limitations are why ended up going fully DSP with Acourate on a PC doing XO and correction and a separate 8 channel DAC (Motu 8A).

 

[FrantzM]

I have a mini dsp 2x4HD which I was going to be using for speaker DSP but subjectively I wasnt entirely happy with the sound. This could be nothing but a typical subjective misinterpretation however. I will perform some measurements of it. As you say there is no point in having another DAC prior to this if its the way you want to go.

All these sorts of potential limitations are why ended up going fully DSP with Acourate on a PC doing XO and correction and a separate 8 channel DAC (Motu 8A).

Hi

While I have become a card-carrying "objectivist", I believe we need to take into account what we perceive, rightly or wrongly. Measurements came to be, to ascertain some of our perceptions , not the other way around. In my book there are differences between gear that under a given set of measurements sound the same. THD in particular as usually measured remains in my book as an insufficient metric, with most any units exhibiting vanishingly small level of such while sounding to my ear quite different. In the here and now, I would like members to continue posting their subjective impression even if it is to be challenged or even later reversed with proper observations, tests protocols , etc .. Such can only advance our knowmledge rather than declaring (hydrogen-audio-like) that we have reached perfection and that every gear sounds the same. Itt remains true that the differences may not be as great as the hyperbole would lead to believe, but we are again in the psychology of human emotions and perceptions: What is "small" and/or insignificant ( loudness wars among others) for most humans in term of audio differences may not be for the audiophiles.

On this, I have struggled also with the MiniDSP accessories in the signal chain. I am not yet persuaded that all DACs sound the same and am not pleased both emotionally and intellectually with the notion of cascading AD to DA conversions.. Something has to give and it usually does with a large degree of insatisfaction... subliminal often ... many find themselves not listening to their stereo as often.
The goal of these measurements should be IMO to further the enjoyment of reproduced music in one's home.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi
To be on-Topic. IME the more subwoofers ( up to 4) the better the bass response. We don't only hear what comes from the speakers but also what comes from the room. Above the Schroder transition region we usually can tame the speakers with economical room treatments (cheap diffusers, absorbers, drapes, etc); below the Schroder , let say 400 Hz in most non-palatial homes, you are dealing with the room contribution in the bass. Under 150 Hz the rooms entirely takes over and due to the way we perceive bass, several subwoofers are better than one. At the price of the LSR310 one can get two cheese-subs that Ray Dunzl uses. At the price of two LSR310, 4 of these subwoofers. 4 integrated subs would translate in a very smooth low bass reproduction FR with the help of DSP and/or EQ. Best bass seems to be a room affair rather than a single Listening Position point affair ....
I will try to find a few articles sustaining my POV. They also explain why bass reproduction is paramount in the perception of rhythm. It is one area where many audio shrines , especially those based on expensive bass anemic audiophile mini-monitors characteristically fail. It doesn't help either that the placement of these speakers for imaging and midrange reproduction doesn't help in the bass either... but audiophiles are headstrong .. and often our hearing is not that great .. so ....

 

[stunta]

Good points but I must reiterate that this thread is about a living room set up and not a dedicated audio room.

When my basement is ready I am going to spam these forums with questions

BTW, I am deaf at the highest frequencies and very sensitive to mid-high frequency harshness.