Commonalities of the Modern-Day Snake Oil Salesman

[agtp]

As I watched this video, it occurred to me that I’ve heard this line of reasoning somewhere before.

The quotes in bold are that of Steve, followed by comments made by Amir from the locked MQA thread.

“There are bigger things to be cynical about.”

The bigger wrong by far is Blu-ray, not MQA.

You want examples of where your rights are being managed, look to Blu-ray.

Let me turn around the question: why on earth is the community going after him instead of the countless people selling junk to audiophiles? Why don't they all get together and go after the people behind those products?

Now if we went after video and liberated that, we would have something.

Really, in the world of audio today, MQA is not remotely big enough problem for people to go after.

Way too much energy is wasted on this topic really. It has become cause célèbre for a number of people, distracting from otherwise useful work that could be done. Frankly I don't care for archimago spending time on MQA which he could otherwise use for more useful contributions to audiophile society. As he used to do.

Wouldn't energy be better spent to go and deal with that than MQA?

“Cynicism about audio products, specifically, cables … Mmm, give it a break.”

Complaining about MQA? Give me a break….

“Hard business to get into” “If it’s that easy to do, do it” “Takes time and money”

Indeed if people want to beat up MQA, they should build their own version of it.

It is not easy to build a perceptual codec that is backwards compatible with PCM.

That said, I have said elsewhere that I think I can hire the right signal processing experts to build an open-source competitor to MQA for around $100,000. Everyone who is up in arms on this should create a funding campaign and I will then get the people to build it.

If it is not worth that kind of funding to people complaining the most, then it is not an important problem to solve.

Building something like MQA is not hard. Folks should do that instead of complaining.

Don't waste your energy on me or in forum arguments. Create a gofundme or whatever and get a few DSP people to build this after hours. I think it will take $50K or so to get there.

“At the end of the day, it’s got to do something.” “Proved their worth by surviving.”

If it becomes ubiquitous, it means the consumer has spoken and wants it. In that case, that is it and we better not complain.

t might be but there is market demand for higher sample rate so tech companies rise up to support it.

How about the fact that every DAC chip produced today supports higher than CD sample rate and bit depth? They are doing so in the interest of meeting market demand. The logic is added to chip, likely increasing its cost.

Again, they do this because there is demand for it.

Once again, there is market demand for sample rate/bit depth above CD. MQA meets that demand while not requiring the full bandwidth.

It doesn't matter that it is an illusion. It is what the customer is asking. If he wants Wagyu beef, you can't give him a different kind of beef. That is what he wants to put on the menu.

You cannot talk people out of using MQA with just some word arguments. MQA has a value proposition that is working in the niche market they are going after to some extent. That market is real. It is there. Success to date of MQA proves it. Building something like MQA is not hard. Folks should do that instead of complaining.

“If you don’t believe in cables, don’t buy cables” “Get your hardware store cables and live happily ever after” “Do what you want to do” “If other people want to spend … so what” “Give it a break”

It is just one more thing for people want it to consume it. For the other 99%, we can all go about our business.

I also don't get the sense that any of this negative fighting has had any effect. The people championing MQA are in the population of actual consumers of high-res audio and hence their opinion matters a lot more than someone like Archimago who has fought that notion. It is like Android users trying to tell Apple users to not buy iPhones. It just doesn't work.

All of this has really surprised me. If MQA is chasing a problem that doesn't exist, then let it go there and fail for heaven's sake. If we are so worried, it seems that we think it is solving real problems!

On your question anyway, I am not scared of them. They present no threat to me as an audiophile. I am confident of access to lossless, MQA-less content for the foreseeable future. I have access to tons of independent labels producing content without MQA in high resolution.

Nope. It has become a "thing" to dump on MQA on Internet forums. Getting on board that hate wagon seems to have value to folks. Why else would Chris volunteer to give that talk? It has become a political movement of sorts.

Well, here we have them attacking a little company, i.e. MQA.

The market for MQA content is NOT objectivists. They don't believe in high sample rate/bit-depths anyway so they are not the customer.

We are just an annoying bunch of non-customers for the company. We have to be straight and honest about this.

Anyone who shows up to get content they get it and that is that. What they do with it is their business.

As a wise man once said, ask not for the other person to change, but think of how you can change. You cannot hold back MQA.

 

[aleksander]

Why should he care when other people scream "snake oil!", by his own logic?

 

[cjfrbw]

I have fooled myself so often and repeatedly with expectation bias in my own system, I am clearly my own worst hazard to objectivity.

 

[Graph Feppar]

Some people are simply parasites who will never contribute anything of value to the society in their entire lives. They are predators who prey on naive and stupid people. On one hand I would like if they stopped their audio scamming, problem is that they would just move to different thing and start scamming people there.

I think its better if they scam rich audiophools than if they scam senile elderly or desperately ill people. Even worse, they could go to goverment and scam whole nations, its lesser evil if they sell magic cables.

 

[invaderzim]

Both Steve and Darko have recently had comments like this with the overall argument being "who is it hurting if people are happy with the result" or "It only costs this much so why worry about it?"
People are getting bombarded from every angle with crazy ways to improve their sound and then are being told that if they think about it too much it is a bad thing. Even if people in a friendly way ask these 'reviewers' about comparing two different items without knowing which one they are listening to they now get shouted down.
Instead of telling people to really think through their next purchase and objectively compare it to their current component they do a dismissive wave and say "if you like it buy it and move on and then please buy the next product I hype too" like everyone has an unlimited source of money.

The first problem:
People's ability for deductive reasoning is being broken down at every turn. To quote captain disillusion "love with your heart, for everything else use your brain"
The single greatest repository of information man has ever known is being used to tell people they don't need facts, they don't need to think; just get excited about something and spend, spend, spend.

This lack of ability to look at anything analytically is why throughout the day people have to tell me about news events that they have completely wrong or show me amazing fake videos and insist they have to be real.

I understand that sometimes people like things that don't have the most impressive specs; I myself have two tube amps that I enjoy but I have never told anyone that they have to buy one or that their life is incomplete until they do. And most importantly my career and financial happiness don't rely on my ability to continue to convince people they need to keep spending money on the products I talk about.

The second problem:
The audio industry is being financially pushed forward with group hype and expectation bias. To a large extent it isn't growing based on quality products it is growing based on excellent marketing. The hype is contagious and you want to be a part of it; you want your system to sound as good as the reviewer is saying theirs sounds. I didn't realize my sound quality didn't measure up until I read this 'review'. "Maybe if I buy this power cable I'll be as happy with my system as they are." "I liked my $1000 amp but it turns out this $2,500 one would make me more happy." "I can't afford a $6000 amp but I can afford a noise harvester for $100; maybe that will do the trick"
How many perfectly good components get pushed aside for just equally as good or even not as good of replacements because expectation bias made the people think the new one was amazing. I've mentioned my own experience with an $800 DAC and my Topping D30. I spent a lot of money chasing improvement prior to that point. I now mostly avoid the objective product reviews or dismiss them as being slanted but even still I find myself wondering if the new DAC that tested really well would be an improvement and 'it is only $100'.....

 

[Sal1950]

Once you realize that outside of transducers, if reasonable care is given to choosing components, modern electronics will for the most part all sound the same and you have become a card carrying member of the objective community.
Then you will still want to improve the sound of your recordings and your overall enjoyment of you system. You then start adding things like DSP, room treatments, active eq, multich upmixing, all the other sort of things that will factually and measureably change to sound of your system more along the personal preference line.
You've now returned to being a card carrying objective/subjective audiophile.
It's all so confusing. LOLOLOLOL

 

[jsrtheta]

I'm not sure of the point of this. Because it is deceptive: It implies that spending a lot of money on cables is somehow just a choice. Well, to some extent. But it is fraud, in the criminal sense to me, for most. It's like saying "If you want to be a Scientologist, go ahead! Why would anyone care?" Well, because you might have loved ones who do not want to lose you to a dangerous cult, that's why.

This video demonstrates no understanding of new-audiophile insecurity and gullibility. He uses the piss-poor example of buying a boat. Let me tell you, there's not a lot of idiocy in boats. It's too dangerous and, worse for marine suppliers, sail makers, and boat builders, bullshit claims are largely falisifiable quickly, and in real time. Ditto photography. Ditto any reality-based hobby.

I for one spent a fortune when I first got into this hobby/pastime/obsession on cables I was told would work miracles, left veils, expose details, etc. Having flunked every math class I ever took and being also scientifically illiterate, I was a sucker for the mythos of "high end" cables. I managed to pull out of this after a couple of years, but not in time to avoid buying ludicrously expensive cables and interconnects.

Recently, I sold a pair of old Monitor Audio Monitor 2.5s I had. Great speakers for their time, and pretty damned good ones for today. The buyer came to the house and, as usually happens, we talked audio. I realized that this guy did not make oodles of money, was married, and had children. He was relatively new to the hobby. Nice guy. He started asking me about cables and DACs, and I told him don't waste money on either. As long as his DAC was reasonably recently manufactured, I told him, he would no notice the "huge" difference so many promised. As for cables, I said, order cheap from Monoprice or Parts Express or the like. Do not waste money on "audiophile" cables, I told him. I really didn't want to see this guy break up his marriage or, worse, make his kids suffer, because he believed he would die if he didn't get that 3m pair of Magnapseudo speaker cables TAS was on about. (I do not claim any of this was imminent or even likely, but you know what I mean.)

That said, if someone understands that the Magnapseudos will sound no different than his current Belden cables, but he has the dough and they really spruce up the system, fine. He knows what he's buying and what to expect. People are free to contract. But they aren't free to defraud.

 

[GGroch]

Here is a You Tube video link to what I think is a very effective response to cable snake oil salespeople. I would like to know if others here agree.

I think the video is effective because while admitting the benefits of cables (without them you hear nothing, and nicer cables are aesthetically pleasing), it also dismisses cable's snake oil benefits with humor, empathy, and simple explanations; discribing the speaker cable parameters that DO matter. At one point he compares speaker cables to shoe laces...both have a real impact (if you do not have any).

You Tube: Joe N Tell - Do Cables Matter.

This video would certainly not change the views of anyone already firmly in either the Cable Benefits Denier or Supporter camps.

However, many people who look to us for advice on cables are in neither camp. Snake oil sellers like Paul McGowan are generally smooth talking, likable fellows (that makes them effective). A lot of deniers (myself included) can be technical, dry, and sometimes angry or frustrated when discussing the subject.

There are a few points in the video that I am sure ASR's posters will disagree. He sometimes switches topics between auto-sound power cables, interconnects, and speaker wires in a confusing way. He also is a fan of banana plugs which I know some here are not.

But, Going forward I will point some of my yet to be convinced friends to this video as it covers the topic well without getting too technical.

 

[sergeauckland]

I think that a lot of Foo, whether in Hifi or cosmetics or anything else would go away, or at least be substantially reduced if our education system taught critical thinking from a very young age. Believe nothing, question everything, demand proof.

We start it off innocently enough with Father Christmas, religion, the Tooth Fairy and the like, then at an early age, kids get bombarded with TV adverts selling them the latest 'must-have' It goes on to fashion, the 'must-have' trainers or jeans.

Nowhere do I see schools teaching kids that it's all marketing, it's leading up to Brave New World where we have to consume just to keep the economy growing, and to keep the economy growing, we need consumers, more of them to replace the ones dropping off the perch, all buying stuff.

I have a rather cynical view of the way the world is going, has been going for a long time, yet have no suggestion that wouldn't cause major social unrest if people stopped buying stuff, and the unemployment that would cause. We're on a treadmill and can't get off.

S.

 

[SIY]

If our education system taught critical thinking from a very young age, kids might become skeptical of our education system. And we can't have that, can we?

 

[BDWoody]

Some of these guys remind me of the old turbo encabulator vid:

 

[Sal1950]

Some of these guys remind me of the old turbo encabulator vid:

That's where they learned their marketing skills.

 

[Phineas Newborn Jr.]

I have a dear friend who believes, no, who knows that cables make a serious difference. He once gave me some expensive RCAs and a power cord to try out, I never bothered to open the bag they were in, and gave them back to him some months later. They sure looked pretty...
I'm smart enough not to engage him in arguments whether cables make a difference or not, because I may lose his friendship. I feel he takes it the same way, so this is a tabu for us.
Question - to what other MODERN field or trade would you equate the cable salesmen in their snake oil peddling raison d'etre? I've though of it, and am having a difficult time to come up with a contemporary equivalent.
Which profession in our 21st century is equal to the cable men?
These two are carry-overs from the ages past -
Holistic supplement salesmen? Those COULD make a difference.
Tarot card readers? They could certainly affect someone's behavior.

Any ideas?

 

[BDWoody]

Cosmetics

Organic stuff (sometimes)

I have a dear friend who believes, no, who knows that cables make a serious difference. He once gave me some expensive RCAs and a power cord to try out, I never bothered to open the bag they were in, and gave them back to him some months later. They sure looked pretty...
I'm smart enough not to engage him in arguments whether cables make a difference or not, because I may lose his friendship. I feel he takes it the same way, so this is a tabu for us.
Question - to what other MODERN field or trade would you equate the cable salesmen in their snake oil peddling raison d'etre? I've though of it, and am having a difficult time to come up with a contemporary equivalent.
Which profession in our 21st century is equal to the cable men?
These two are carry-overs from the ages past -
Holistic supplement salesmen? Those COULD make a difference.
Tarot card readers? They could certainly affect someone's behavior.

Any ideas?

 

[Sal1950]

Male enhancement pills:
The Top 5
http://www.singlecausesinglecure.org/top-5-male-enhancement-pills/

 

[Phineas Newborn Jr.]

Male enhancement pills:
The Top 5
http://www.singlecausesinglecure.org/top-5-male-enhancement-pills/

I think that falls under the holistic supplement racket...but thanks for narrowing it down.

What about prostitutes? The good ones make every John feel special.

 

[Palladium]

I think that a lot of Foo, whether in Hifi or cosmetics or anything else would go away, or at least be substantially reduced if our education system taught critical thinking from a very young age. Believe nothing, question everything, demand proof...

Not only in critical thinking, the education system is almost designed to ensure Americans are made as financially illiterate and irresponsible as possible, which explains why 47% of Americans can't cough up $500 in cash for an emergency and the average household pays ~$1800 yearly on CC interest alone.

Not to mention dealing with the IRS on personal tax is a complete hell, versus Singapore where the government rightfully does all the hard work at the filing side. So for 99.9% of the taxpayers, all they have to do is to check the end statement and select payment type which doesn't even take like 5 minutes.

 

[DonH56]

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina41.htm

 

[BluesDaddy]

Brand new to this forum (didn't know it existed), but not new to audio (I'm a sexagenarian) or the whole objective vs. subjective debate, or this argument by Guttenberg. We use to have this debate back early at the turn of the century on the Audioreview.com forums. And the whole point IS about 1) truth (or reality, or fact), which actually DOES matter; 2) helping people avoid getting snookered. Guttenberg's argument could be used by ANY con man or slick sales person upselling you by convincing you "need" the higher cost product - I hate seeing people taken advantage and helping the helpless/defenseless is always a worthy goal; and 3) helping people avoid getting disillusioned with Hi-Fi or HT and broad brush painting the whole pursuit as worthless or a sham.

Anyway, nice to be here and hope to learn from y'all - even at my age.

 

[MattHooper]

Ugh....

The "who is it hurting ? If X makes someone happy then who are you to denigrate X?" argument is head-banging both in it's logic and ubiquity.

It's usually applied to high end audio cables: Look, if someone paid $5,000 for their AC cable and he thinks it makes a difference and it makes him happy, then why bother criticizing the idea of such cables? Just don't buy them if you don't want to.

To such people I reply:

Let's say you were sending money each month to what you believed to be a needy child oversees, helping her get food and education. You feel good to be helping this person. But what if was a scam - there was no such needy child as it had been presented to you and instead your money is going straight to the pockets of a well-off scammer.

But...hey...as long as you don't know the truth and sending the money each month brings you some level of satisfaction...that's all that matters, right? Why would anyone have motivation to flag such a charity is a "scam?' Just let people be happy in their ignorance, and if someone can take advantage of them, that's commerce!

Same goes for if you were buying a diamond ring for your fiance. The jeweler takes advantage of your lack of knowledge about gems, charges you $8,000 for what you believe to be a diamond ring, where it is instead a fake diamond worth only 20 bucks.

But what does it matter? As long as YOU remain blissfully ignorant of the scam and YOUR wife is made giddy by thinking she's been given an actual expensive diamond ring...no biggie, right?

If someone beside you could see you were being scammed and could have informed you that you were about to purchase a fake diamond, you wouldn't want to have known?

Of course people would. We actually do care about truth in that way. We do want to get what we THINK we are paying for. Informed choices are ALWAYS better than uninformed choices.

If that weren't the case then there would be no such thing as being scammed, taken for a ride, gouged, etc.

People who point out that the claims of many high end cable manufacturers are dubious, and why they are dubious, are doing everyone a favor insofar as they are providing relevant information to allow a consumer to make wiser, more knowledgeable choices. It's like the knowledgeable person in the gem shop informing you the claims of the Jewler are misleading you. That's what good people do.

If, given the information available, one wants to go spend money on high end cables knowing there are unlikely to be performance benefits...fine and dandy! At least it's an informed choice rather than one made under false pretenses.