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Combining a digital dsp with analog crossovers are not always a good idea

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MAB

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You didn’t answer my question: Were there any specific, supported, complaints?

Also, what was methodology of applying correction?

As for everything having drawbacks, sure. Any manual process requires expertise and time to get right - that’s the drawback. Lack either, and results are likely to be suboptimal. Most of the valid complaints about processing come down to lack of user expertise - bad starting measurements, poor gain staging, asking tools to do what they cannot, etc. The rest of the valid complaints tend to be from shortcuts in the measuring or optimization process, or defective/incompatible hardware. Others are audiophool idiocy for the most part: bitching and moaning about non-issues such as sample rates or an extra A/D conversion for example.

But the bottom line is, without modern EQ tools it’s near impossible to get the bass right in a small room. Given that bass is estimated at 30% of preference, the logical inference is that anyone interested in fidelity should learn these tools and use them.
I think the OP is implying that the same three people who couldn't get DSP to work should gut the speakers' passive crossovers and implement active DSP crossovers.:eek: They will need more amplifiers and loudspeaker cable-risers it seems.;)
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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Agreed. If you want to learn speaker design, it's a great hobby. Otherwise, you'll want to kill yourself pretty quickly.
Ofcourse, modifying passive speakers with a dsp crossover is for real enthusiasts with measurement gear. It will take months to do it right ( I have spent years ) .
And the result can be better sounding than the passive crossover in most speakers.

Passive loudspeakers are really inferior sounding in every way, especially if we compare really good and expensive loudspeakers. Passives is a piece of shit , - they are inaccurate and a waste of time.
 

fpitas

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Ofcourse, modifying passive speakers with a dsp crossover is for real enthusiasts with measurement gear. It will take months to do it right ( I have spent years ) .
And the result can be better sounding than the passive crossover in most speakers.
I agree, and I have active speakers. But it's not for the casual speaker owner by any means.
 
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Tangband

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This is not an answer, it's an anecdote. Slightly unnatural sound in the treble register would show up in the measurements. You should show the data to support this if true.
They should show it - I didnt do the listening. Interesting nevertheless, because the ones who did the listening have a lot of experience.
 

goat76

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I must say that most of you are spinning this way out of proportion. That listening test was never meant to go into any depth, it was just three friends having a listen and noticing the same problem with the sound. It's possible some serious testing will happen down the line. :)

And for you who are speculating if that forum is just another subjective place, I can assure you that's not the case. It's an objective-based forum just like ASR with the exact same attitude towards subjectivity, but has existed way longer. The average knowledge of audio is very high on Faktiskt, I have learned a lot from reading that forum over the years.
 
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DWPress

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I can only conclude that they messed something up in the process of trying to improve things, easy to do. I see so many people applying Dirac to subpar speakers that are usually way to small and all kinds of other things wrong when that money should have been spent on better speakers to begin with. If anything in the first post were accurate then the likes of Dirac and the plethora of other correction software available wouldn't have existed for long let alone tools like REW which can verify tests and results.

My system has active XOs, decent amps and a decade+ of learning to implementing things correctly.
 

goat76

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I can only conclude that they messed something up in the process of trying to improve things, easy to do. I see so many people applying Dirac to subpar speakers that are usually way to small and all kinds of other things wrong when that money should have been spent on better speakers to begin with. If anything in the first post were accurate then the likes of Dirac and the plethora of other correction software available wouldn't have existed for long let alone tools like REW which can verify tests and results.

My system has active XOs, decent amps and a decade+ of learning to implementing things correctly.

Are you sure you want to compare your sound system to the one they used for the test? :)

1664064992211.jpeg


And do you want to have a look behind those curtains?
1664065106500.jpeg


The wall is the subwoofer! :D
1664065318817.jpeg
 

jhaider

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Are you sure you want to compare your sound system to the one they used for the test? :)

View attachment 233105

Those are very big speakers with beautiful finish, but they not very impressive in design. The midranges are too big, or the tweeter waveguide is far too small. Get horizontal polar plots if you don’t believe my visual evaluation. :)
 

thewas

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Those are very big speakers with beautiful finish, but they not very impressive in design. The midranges are too big, or the tweeter waveguide is far too small. Get horizontal polar plots if you don’t believe my visual evaluation. :)
Plus those "1980s style" steps for the tweeters which will worsen also the vertical polars. ;)
 

Chrispy

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Are you sure you want to compare your sound system to the one they used for the test? :)

View attachment 233105

And do you want to have a look behind those curtains?
View attachment 233108

The wall is the sub
Are you sure you want to compare your sound system to the one they used for the test? :)

View attachment 233105

And do you want to have a look behind those curtains?
View attachment 233108

The wall is the subwoofer! :D
View attachment 233112
Must be the egg crate foam that's the big difference?
 

DWPress

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Are you sure you want to compare your sound system to the one they used for the test? :)

Yes, mine are bigger I think and far better designed. I can totally see why they thought they had crap results - that is one hot mess and would take a whole lot of effort to sort out, especially with passive XO in the mix and who knows how they rolled the HP and LP into it for subs. Not going to even look at linked thread.

Edit: added a picure, I've only got 2 subs though. Feeling inadequate....

IMG_8133.jpg
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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I can only conclude that they messed something up in the process of trying to improve things, easy to do. I see so many people applying Dirac to subpar speakers that are usually way to small and all kinds of other things wrong when that money should have been spent on better speakers to begin with. If anything in the first post were accurate then the likes of Dirac and the plethora of other correction software available wouldn't have existed for long let alone tools like REW which can verify tests and results.

My system has active XOs, decent amps and a decade+ of learning to implementing things correctly.
Dont you see any possibility that in their listening test , they were :

1. Right ?

2. The minidsp with its A/D and D/A and processing is not 100% transparent , even in default mode ?

3. The sample rate conversion in digital domain is not transparent, ie worsening the sound ?

4. Why asume they are wrong ?

5. The owner of the system has done many measurements thru the years, and has also been consulting an acoustical engineer to fix the room.

422FDB7B-851C-4424-93CB-20CA291EF06D.jpeg
 
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Tangband

Tangband

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DSP could time align the drivers, eliminating the need for the steps. But DSP certainly can't fix the impact of the steps.
I think those steps in the frontspeakers are deliberately done in the construction.
 

MAB

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I think those steps in the frontspeakers are deliberately done in the construction.
You missed my point... It certainly is deliberate, it appears to be an attempt to time align the tweeter. Active crossovers are so easy to adjust time alignment, eliminating the need for the stepped-recess. And steps are really problematic. And no analog or DSP correction can deal with a step, that one looks like a canyon. I guess they were time-aligning to that really large woofer (that they used for a midrange) so they ended up with the tweeter at the bottom of a very deep crevasse.
Really ironic...
 

jhaider

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Dont you see any possibility that in their listening test , they were :

1. Right ?

2. The minidsp with its A/D and D/A and processing is not 100% transparent , even in default mode ?

3. The sample rate conversion in digital domain is not transparent, ie worsening the sound ?

4. Why asume they are wrong ?

5. The owner of the system has done many measurements thru the years, and has also been consulting an acoustical engineer to fix the room.

1) There's a non-zero chance of that I suppose...but it's damn close to zero, absent some glaring user error
2,3) Nope
4) Personal experience
5) That's the most telling thing you've written in this thread! With well engineered loudspeakers one feels much less need to "fix" the room. In a well engineered loudspeaker the off-axis radiation is of a piece with the direct sound, so a normal room with standard home furnishings ends up working quite well (except in the bass, where all small rooms suck and need help with at least well-implemented EQ for a single seat, or multisubs + EQ if multiple seats should sound good). Put another way, the alleged sonic harms caused by the new box are swamped by pre-existing issues.
 

goat76

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Must be the egg crate foam that's the big difference?
The foam is placed there to reduce the early reflections from the main speakers. Those speakers are designed for a close-to-wall placement with an extreme toe-in crossed in front of the listener's position for a wider sweet spot.
 
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Waxx

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In this whole tread, i see no objective data that supports any of the statements made here. Passive is shit and active is the only way is a very bland statement that should be supported by data.

I think both have their place, and passive in a lot of places is better for the purpose of the speaker. Those general claims in general i think are worthless, because situations differ, and each different situation needs a different solution.

So bring the numbers, measurements and math please, so we can learn. Now this tread has mainly been a pissing contest...
 
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