Collaborate on the "New to the ASR Forum FAQ" here

[kemmler3D]

Per some discussion on the "whence ABX?" thread, I figured I could kick off the FAQ we envisioned. Part of the idea is heading off the "But I definitely heard a difference between..." newbie threads without creating a bad experience for new, enthusiastic, but perhaps misguided users. I think a FAQ can go a bit beyond that, though. My thinking is that it can introduce people to ASR and some of the core concepts in currency around here, but it doesn't need to go in-depth on actual audio concepts - it should introduce them and link directly to topical further reading.

I've started a very rough and cursory document here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wwLBC_GEny9eMhyLJSzb-yxRi37BIX2G7Cjee76oAIw/edit?usp=sharing

Please feel free to add questions, answers, or edit ones that are already there. Once the contributors feel satisfied and Amir approves, we can publish it as its own thread. In the future, we can link to the FAQ instead of repeating the same stuff about ABX, blind listening, the value of measurements, etc.

 

[DonR]

Well let me start:

Q: Is "break in" or "burn in" valid for audio components?

A: Aside from initially testing functionality, no.

 

[dkinric]

This has been attempted before

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[ahofer]

I think it should be customary to link Amir's videos on various topics within the FAQ. In a sense, he's got a head start on it.

 

[NTK]

This has been attempted before

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And this one.

The Audio Science Review Manifesto???

In the comments for the first Ciúnas Audio ISO DAC semi-review, @AndrovichIV and @LTig suggested having a FAQ or introduction to address common anti-measurement sentiments that people bring up. Since I am a professional technical writer and quite a fan of ASR, I thought I would try my hand at...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[MAB]

I figured I could kick off the FAQ we envisioned.

I would love an easy to reference FAQ, would be great to have examples.

Well let me start:

Q: Is "break in" or "burn in" valid for audio components?

A: Aside from initially testing functionality, no.

This is a good one I think. I have been thinking of taking T/S measurements on a brand new woofer and tweeter drivers that I have, and measure the changes (or lack of change) as I break it in. I am not clear on if that has been done here, perhaps I missed it in my searches.

This has been attempted before

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

For me this thread is too long and is (as OP states) a manifesto. I need something that looks more like a card-catalog or searchable citations. Perhaps I'm not good at using the search tools here...

 

[DonR]

And this one.

The Audio Science Review Manifesto???

In the comments for the first Ciúnas Audio ISO DAC semi-review, @AndrovichIV and @LTig suggested having a FAQ or introduction to address common anti-measurement sentiments that people bring up. Since I am a professional technical writer and quite a fan of ASR, I thought I would try my hand at...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Attempted many times but scattered all over the forums.

Ideally, every answer should have a link to at least one study or paper that supports the answer.

 

[tomelex]

Well let me start:

Q: Is "break in" or "burn in" valid for audio components?

A: Aside from initially testing functionality, no.

A YES or NO answer is usually not a good idea, there will always be fringes, for example, proven fact that power tubes vary over the first 100 hours before they settle down to their slow steady decline over time due to cathode emissions. "the more I learn about something the less i "know" should be a caution for all of us.

 

[DonR]

A YES or NO answer is usually not a good idea, there will always be fringes, for example, proven fact that power tubes vary over the first 100 hours before they settle down to their slow steady decline over time due to cathode emissions. "the more I learn about something the less i "know" should be a caution for all of us.

I agree there will always be fringe cases. Do we address those or do we stick with mainstream (i.e. 99.99% of consumer equipment) for the sake of clarity and brevity? Perhaps we can use qualifiers such as "in most cases, no" but then that invites the element of doubt.

 

[danadam]

And this one.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-audio-science-review-manifesto.9975/

• Nov 19, 2019

This has been attempted before
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iles-posting-at-asr-for-the-first-time.17598/

• Nov 17, 2020

Ah, it's that time of year again already ;-)

 

[kemmler3D]

A condescending note to "golden ears" definitely doesn't do anything to help people acclimate to the forum, but the FAQ contained in the manifesto looks helpful. I think maybe it should be in actual Q & A format, and labeled as a FAQ though. I am not sure people with tedious / old questions will immediately (or ever) seek out something marked "manifesto". IMO "FAQ for new users" should be both attractive and intuitive enough to contain / preempt some of the "But I definitely heard the cables!" posts.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I don't see this as a reference that newbies will seek out. I doubt that anyone will actually seek it out.

The value of such a (compendium?) would be for us to use as a pool of answers. Someone asks about cables? Go to "C", scroll to "cables" and hopefully find several entries that resolve the issue. Copy and paste, and voila! Do the same for someone claiming vinyl has infinitely greater resolution than digital. Go to "V", scroll down to "vinyl resolution", copy and paste. Done. Videos of Floyd Toole? They should be right there, under "T".

Of course, we'll need to find those posts. That could be a problem.

Jim

 

[JSmith]

Audio woo

Audio woo consists of various vague and unsupported claims for devices or methods for getting better sound quality from systems that reproduce recorded music. Such claims are made by manufacturers, hobbyists, and writers in the field.

rationalwiki.org

JSmith

 

[Jim Taylor]

Audio woo

Audio woo consists of various vague and unsupported claims for devices or methods for getting better sound quality from systems that reproduce recorded music. Such claims are made by manufacturers, hobbyists, and writers in the field.

rationalwiki.org

JSmith

Uh ..... that would be found under "W". Jim

 

[TimF]

I don't think people easily conceive how radical and unusual it is to make product selection rational. In fact, people resist it. We enjoy the illusions regarding products and their performance, and regarding so called product quality, and regarding the status and exclusiveness of expensive products. It is an elaborate construct that is the very commercial air we breathe. People who don't really care much for music get into audio equipment for various purposes. People buy remarkably expensive performance cars to commute in heavy traffic. 300 hp cars crawling along at 15 to 35 miles per hour on I-5 or I15. ARS is going against the grain of marketing that is a very powerful and large industry. How do you convince someone that their perception has been manipulated, and manipulated to such a degree that it takes effort and work to counter the deceptions.

 

[Jim Taylor]

How do you convince someone that their perception has been manipulated, and manipulated to such a degree that it takes effort and work to counter the deceptions.

The same way that people hundreds of years ago were finally convinced that our solar system was heliocentric; it took time, it took proofs, it took education, and most of all it took perseverance.


Jim

 

[kemmler3D]

@Jim Taylor I think in most cases we would need to link the newbies to the FAQ. But, it would save time in typing out the same answer over and over, that's what FAQs are usually for. We don't have a great resource for that just yet.

@TimF Yes and no... Consumer Reports has been chugging along for decades on a similar rational-consumer basis. RTINGs is pretty successful and mainstream. There's a market for this stuff, not like ASR is quickly fading into obscurity either. In general I think people are very skeptical of "marketing", but they may only notice it's "marketing" once it's pointed out to them.

 

[Waxx]

Well let me start:

Q: Is "break in" or "burn in" valid for audio components?

A: Aside from initially testing functionality, no.

Only on things that use heat (cfr tubes that need to stabilise) or mechanical movement (speaker drivers) but in general the break in is very short (especially for speakers where in general it's less than a few minutes, and mostly only a few seconds), a few wel documented exceptions not counted (like raw Mark Audio drivers). The rest is bullshit. And break in can be measured (like is done quiet a few times with mark audio drivers on diyaudio.com) when it's needed, no magic hocus pocus is needed.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't think people easily conceive how radical and unusual it is to make product selection rational. In fact, people resist it. We enjoy the illusions regarding products and their performance, and regarding so called product quality, and regarding the status and exclusiveness of expensive products. It is an elaborate construct that is the very commercial air we breathe. People who don't really care much for music get into audio equipment for various purposes. People buy remarkably expensive performance cars to commute in heavy traffic. 300 hp cars crawling along at 15 to 35 miles per hour on I-5 or I15. ARS is going against the grain of marketing that is a very powerful and large industry. How do you convince someone that their perception has been manipulated, and manipulated to such a degree that it takes effort and work to counter the deceptions.

Yes, people don't like effort and work. Communicating by stories is the easiest way or if you wish fables. Marketing is commercialized fables. Also when people are "rational" they like it to be easy. Simple numbers. The reason ASR gets accused of enshrining SINAD. Why horsepower sells cars or riding lawn mowers or farm tractors. Or why megapixels sells cameras.

I am not against FAQ's, but even the idea of reading thru FAQ's is something most won't do.

I wonder if we could construct something different. A handful of stories to illustrate a few key concepts. Pattern the character after common subjectivist patterns of belief and describe how one did or could experience audio in a way to enlighten about bias, and fallible human senses. Perhaps combine it with a few files for download to experience it yourself if you wished. Or linked to online sources to experience a few things. In short we need to create commercials for ASR, and some of those are of a product comparison type. Like the one where two kids play in the mud and one set of clothes is washed in generic detergent and another is washed in Tide.

 

[voodooless]

Yes, people don't like effort and work. Communicating by stories is the easiest way or if you wish fables. Marketing is commercialized fables. Also when people are "rational" they like it to be easy. Simple numbers. The reason ASR gets accused of enshrining SINAD. Why horsepower sells cars or riding lawn mowers or farm tractors. Or why megapixels sells cameras.

But there is a catch here: they all try to sell a product, and none of them care for the truth, none of them are actually informative.

I am not against FAQ's, but even the idea of reading thru FAQ's is something most won't do.

That is indeed not what it should be in my mind. It should rather be a resource one can link to or copy past from whenever one of the standard questions comes up.

I wonder if we could construct something different. A handful of stories to illustrate a few key concepts. Pattern the character after common subjectivist patterns of belief and describe how one did or could experience audio in a way to enlighten about bias, and fallible human senses. Perhaps combine it with a few files for download to experience it yourself if you wished. Or linked to online sources to experience a few things. In short we need to create commercials for ASR, and some of those are of a product comparison type. Like the one where two kids play in the mud and one set of clothes is washed in generic detergent and another is washed in Tide.

I really hate that: using what you despise to try to convince somebody. There is nothing wrong with stories. They pique interest. But the end goal should be to educate. I don't want people to just believe me because I have a nice story to tell. I want them to actually understand, and apply that knowledge next time.