Coffee - do you and how do you consume it?

[ryanosaur]

With any grinder, a ristretto pull from any roast will always taste syrupy and thick. Grinder burr geometry is another snake oil and should be double blind abx tasted

This is not my actual experience and I disagree with your assertion. There are measurable differences between how Conical and Flat Burrs grind and this is widely accepted to affect flavor profile.

I will agree with your statement insofar as you limit it to "specialty" burrs. Is an SSP $300 Burr set really so different in final taste that it is worth the cost compared to what comes stock in my DF83V or a $70 set of Mazzer Burrs? To that end, this is the only reason I haven't changed out my stock burr set for the 83mm Mazzer Burrs: while there may be some differences, is it the difference that does exist between Flat and Conical? (I'm not so certain, and thus not willing to freely give away hours of my time changing, aligning and seasoning new burrs in a grinder that thus far has failed to perform in a way that satisfies my love for espresso. The DF83V is a good grinder for someone... just not for me.)

 

[delta76]

So after a lot of contemplation, I'm definitely leaning toward a new grinder to replace the DF83V.

The DF83V has been a solid grinder, working well while I was using it. My main complaint is that the flat burrs are just too finicky for the type of espresso I enjoy. Moreover, I never really found consistency going from shot to shot. Something always changed and I might get three completely different shots with only one making my somewhat happy. I even went to the extent of getting a leveling tamper to take tamp variation out of the conversation. Now the few times I opened it up to run filter coffee, the results were quite excellent.

Right now I am leaning heavily toward a Niche Zero.

On the table were the Niche, Lagom Casa 65 and the Varia VS6.

I do like the overall vibe of the Option O Lagom Casa 65, however I get hung up on the almost routine comment that it tends toward a "cleaner" shot and is designed more to focus on lighter roasts.

On the flip side, I know the Niche uses the Mazzer Kony Burrs which are a little more familiar to me and I trust to deliver the type of espresso I really want to be drinking.

But then I keep coming up on the Varia VS6 machine. While it comes with a stock flat burr, the burrs are interchangeable and I can actually install one of their conical burr sets. Of these the standard Stainless Burr seemingly matches what I would expect from the Mazzer burrs used in the Niche (lower acidity, higher body and medium cleanliness).

Of course, there is one other option which is to change my DF83V Burrs from their stock burrs and try again with Mazzer 83mm flat burrs.

Anybody out there have any thoughts you would care to share?

If you drink medium to dark coffee, NZ might shine
I much prefer lagom casa over it for my light - medium light coffees.

Casa: smaller footprint. Auto shut off. Noticeably less retention. Suitable for a large range of brew types. Sleek design (all aluminum which might be a pro or con). No RDT is needed.
NZ: built like a tank. More pleasant noise. Produces a bit of static which can be solved by RDT but with the risk of rusty burr and gunk of coffee ground

After buying Casa I sold my NZ and did not miss it one bit. My next grinder will be Motto80 and hopefully will be a step up

 

[delta76]

With any grinder, a ristretto pull from any roast will always taste syrupy and thick. Grinder burr geometry is another snake oil and should be double blind abx tasted

Some grinders will not be able to grind fine enough for ristretto with light roasts, just saying.
While burr geometry could be debatable, there have been researches into how the coffee ground fines distribution affect the taste. I don't think it is very well explored areas and we still have a lot to learn, but it definitely makes a difference. For worse or better.
I am not very into "changing burrs to chase the tastes", as stated previously in the thread. I believe the beans will make the biggest difference. One of the most respected coffee experts Scott Rao said that he believe the contribution in the cup is 70:20:10 for the green beans:roasting:brewing. But for people who want to explore things I am fine with that. Burrs are not absurdly expensive and most burrs for home machine are under $500. Definitely not the snake oil like in audio

 

[Odorb]

I had a Niche Zero and DF64 with DLC burrs for months. I like (I'll say) chocolately shots for lattes but more like 20g in, 25 - 30g out. I kept the DF64 as I preferred the flavour. Not much difference in the workflow to me.

 

[BlueTunes]

I have a Niche Zero. Overall, I'm pleased with it, it seems very solidly made and it's very straightforward to use and I really like how quiet it is.

On the negative side, the plating on the funnel/chute on mine has pitted. It doesn't have any effect on the operation, but it looks scruffy and is disappointing, given the price. I'm not sure if that's common, or whether I just got the "Friday afternoon" one. Perhaps I should contact Niche about it:

View attachment 517982

Also, if like me, you spray a little water on the beans to prevent static, you'll probably find you have to chase the last few beans into the centre, because the angle of the chute is quite shallow and they tend to stick on the front side. It's not a big deal, but if the sides of the chute were a little steeper, it probably wouldn't happen.

The two are not unrelated. Stop spraying your beans.

 

[ryanosaur]

If you drink medium to dark coffee, NZ might shine
I much prefer lagom casa over it for my light - medium light coffees.

Casa: smaller footprint. Auto shut off. Noticeably less retention. Suitable for a large range of brew types. Sleek design (all aluminum which might be a pro or con). No RDT is needed.
NZ: built like a tank. More pleasant noise. Produces a bit of static which can be solved by RDT but with the risk of rusty burr and gunk of coffee ground

After buying Casa I sold my NZ and did not miss it one bit. My next grinder will be Motto80 and hopefully will be a step up

I looked really hard at it. I like it. As I stated, I just keep getting hung up on folk commenting about how it really excels at lighter roasts, especially in comparison to the NZ.

 

[ryanosaur]

I had a Niche Zero and DF64 with DLC burrs for months. I like (I'll say) chocolately shots for lattes but more like 20g in, 25 - 30g out. I kept the DF64 as I preferred the flavour. Not much difference in the workflow to me.

If I spend around 700 on a Grinder again and don't like the juice, I'll be posting in that doghouse thread and drinking battery acid for 5 years. The Lady won't let me near the cafe for relief if this goes pear shaped.

I wish I had your experience. The grinder works well, even at risk of stalling from time to time as it is prone to do. They changed the Burrs since I bought mine, Now red titanium. Mine are supposed to be the Black DLC Espresso Burrs.

Anyway... I plan on making a decision by Tuesday at the latest. I can't keep blowing money at the cafe.

Just wish somebody had some experience with the Varia!

 

[delta76]

I looked really hard at it. I like it. As I stated, I just keep getting hung up on folk commenting about how it really excels at lighter roasts, especially in comparison to the NZ.

I think that is overly stated.
My NZ fails to grind light roast fine enough to choke my DE1XL. LC just breezes through it. As it is also a conical burr I doubt it is that much "clean". I have not compared them side by side, but for some reason NZ left some unpleasant bitterness in my espresso that I can't get rid of (even with faster flow) which pushed me toward buying LC and am glad that I did.
NZ is a good grinder but since it was released we've seen a big development in grinders (thanks to DF64), and for me LC is a step up. It is not an alternative, it is just a better grinder for cup quality.

 

[delta76]

If I spend around 700 on a Grinder again and don't like the juice, I'll be posting in that doghouse thread and drinking battery acid for 5 years. The Lady won't let me near the cafe for relief if this goes pear shaped.

I wish I had your experience. The grinder works well, even at risk of stalling from time to time as it is prone to do. They changed the Burrs since I bought mine, Now red titanium. Mine are supposed to be the Black DLC Espresso Burrs.

Anyway... I plan on making a decision by Tuesday at the latest. I can't keep blowing money at the cafe.

Just wish somebody had some experience with the Varia!

Almost bought a VS6 but something was putting me off. Too many reports of fault and errors. Varia is supposed to fix the VS3 problems with Vs3 gen 2. They did not (completely) , and left some problems lingering with VS6.
It looks very interesting especially with burr options, but I would rather stick with one burr if it grinds well enough, and more importantly, reliable enough. All the flashy shiny things is worthless if I have to spend more time fixing the issues than actually grinding coffee!
Your POV might be different though, and quite many people seem to like VS6 a lot

 

[Odorb]

If I spend around 700 on a Grinder again and don't like the juice, I'll be posting in that doghouse thread and drinking battery acid for 5 years. The Lady won't let me near the cafe for relief if this goes pear shaped.

I wish I had your experience. The grinder works well, even at risk of stalling from time to time as it is prone to do. They changed the Burrs since I bought mine, Now red titanium. Mine are supposed to be the Black DLC Espresso Burrs.

Anyway... I plan on making a decision by Tuesday at the latest. I can't keep blowing money at the cafe.

Just wish somebody had some experience with the Varia!

Toms Grinder Lab on YT I find does decent reviews and comparisons if interested.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

We're conflating taste and texture.
If you want syrupy/thick texture, and you use ultralight roasted beans, you will get a very sour coffee, full stop. Those beans won't release their tastiest flavor compounds unless you run a bit more solvent through them, which is why 3:1 ratios and longer are popular among people who like that roast style.

I don't know that I believe the strong conical vs flat binary that seems to have caught on in recent years (it just seems too pat, too simple, for a process that is characterized by chaotic fracturing and pulverization), but burr geometry does have perceptible outcomes in the cup.

 

[EJ3]

I have a Niche Zero. Overall, I'm pleased with it, it seems very solidly made and it's very straightforward to use and I really like how quiet it is.

On the negative side, the plating on the funnel/chute on mine has pitted. It doesn't have any effect on the operation, but it looks scruffy and is disappointing, given the price. I'm not sure if that's common, or whether I just got the "Friday afternoon" one. Perhaps I should contact Niche about it:

View attachment 517982

Also, if like me, you spray a little water on the beans to prevent static, you'll probably find you have to chase the last few beans into the centre, because the angle of the chute is quite shallow and they tend to stick on the front side. It's not a big deal, but if the sides of the chute were a little steeper, it probably wouldn't happen.

From my own experiences and what I have been told as an explanation:
The spritzing with water causes a bit of the acids of the coffee beans to run onto the surface below them, thus causing the pitting.
The solution used to solve one problem (static), creates another problem (pitting).
Unless the funnel/chute is purported to be made out of something that won't pit.
If it is not supposed to pit (under those conditions) then you may have a faulty chute.

 

[Count Arthur]

From my own experiences and what I have been told as an explanation:
The spritzing with water causes a bit of the acids of the coffee beans to run onto the surface below them, thus causing the pitting.
The solution used to solve one problem (static), creates another problem (pitting).
Unless the funnel/chute is purported to be made out of something that won't pit.
If it is not supposed to pit (under those conditions) then you may have a faulty chute.

Sounds plausible.

 

[olds1959special]

With vodka and oat milk, of course.

 

[EJ3]

With vodka and oat milk, of course.

View attachment 518294

Not saying it's not good (I eat oatmeal long time cook variety at least 4 times a week with craisins & walnuts) but milk come from animals with teats.
Oatmeal don't got teats. Maybe that why you have to "Shake Hard". If you fail to do that, then maybe you have to jump up & down after you drink it?

 

[delta76]

Bean eyeing this for a long time. I don't need it - have already too many scales, but it seems fun.
during the Spring Sales it was discounted on Amazon so I bit the bullet. After a few awkward moments at first, now I could say it is a joy to use and helped decluttering my coffee setup. simple to use, fixes problem of beans bouncing off bowl and off grinder. I think the sentiment is common among owners - it is not a must have, but very nice to have!

 

[delta76]

after 5 years into coffee and 2 years into roasting, time to get deeper into the rabbit hole

View attachment 515956
This big boy is on his way to me. Also 19kg of green bean came to my door yesterday.

Some of my friends and colleagues are getting a free coffee bag

will be next Monday before this shows up in my door. whoosh, 45kg according to shipper, 69kg according to fedex, free shipping with all duties paid

meanwhile 12kg of https://col-spirit-shop.com/product...lo-colombia-gewaschen-best-of-tolima-place-10 came yesterday. Probably need to take one day off, or two next weeks, to have some fun

 

[ryanosaur]

I looked really hard at it. I like it. As I stated, I just keep getting hung up on folk commenting about how it really excels at lighter roasts, especially in comparison to the NZ.

Got some info from Varia that, much like the Lagom Casa, all of their Burrs (conical included) are really designed for a more new-school flavor profile. I didn't ask about comparing grinders, just target flavor profile.

It really seems that Mazzer Burrs will be the way for me.

I decided to give the 83mm Flat Burrs a shot; only $67 through amazon. And probably that much again in coffee to season the burrs.

The guy from Varia indicated that the main difference with special burr coatings is that the more hard the finish, the more "consistent" a grind particle will be created. This was more pertinent to my asking about their conical sets in particular as all 4 Conical Burrs they offer are the same design/geometry, differentiated only in the hardness of the finishing treatment.

 

[Axo1989]

Not saying it's not good (I eat oatmeal long time cook variety at least 4 times a week with craisins & walnuts) but milk come from animals with teats.
Oatmeal don't got teats. Maybe that why you have to "Shake Hard". If you fail to do that, then maybe you have to jump up & down after you drink it?

When you buy cow's milk you may find it's already been shaken hard ... er, homogenised. Unless you get un-homogenised, which the cat prefers. The top bit anyway.

As for 'milk' being exclusively mammalian, milk of the poppy would like a word.

 

[EJ3]

When you buy cow's milk you may find it's already been shaken hard ... er, homogenised. Unless you get un-homogenised, which the cat prefers. The top bit anyway.

As for 'milk' being exclusively mammalian, milk of the poppy would like a word.

I only use "whole milk" for drinking and cooking (oatmeal, cream of wheat & such).
I'll have to check & see about the homogenization. I figured that would happen in transprt.
Never heard of "Milk of the Poppy" (perhaps maybe because my wife and I haven't owned a TV since 2007, so no watching of the mythical "Game of Thrones".
The only reference I could find to "Milk of Poppy".