Coffee - do you and how do you consume it?

[D!sco]

Heat isn’t good in grinding. It changes the bean size as the cut happens (like a hot shard from a steel mill) and high speed can exaggerate inconsistency in grinder alignment. Better grinders are typically slower, larger and have a high power with a slow feed. Slow and powerful will cut more evenly, a large burr will have each part cutting less, and a slow, consistent feed puts less stress and variation on the moving parts. The reason for high speed motors is all cost. Power = (Torque * Speed), so to cut down on cost, the burr size goes down, and the motor speed increases. Gearing adds leverage to these systems which slows the output, but a weak motor will respond worse to cold starts and changes in input.

This has been my TED Talk.

 

[Timmeon]

Really liking this grinder. Here's a cappuccino in the afternoon, hope not to offend any Italians

 

[ryanosaur]

I did play at 1600rpm today. It helped, as did delicate tamping.

I'm absolutely certain that part of my troubles are these beans.

The last shot of the day came closest to something I want to drink, with a Raspberry and Wine quality to it. Crema on this is still challenged, but that started happening on my old grinder, too.

 

[KellenVancouver]

 

[Elitzur–Vaidman]

Might technically be off-topic, but I've discovered that cheap hand grinders can make for phenomenal pepper mills.

 

[D!sco]

My retired Skerton will have this fate as well someday

 

[ryanosaur]

Had an accidental near-great shot!
So I know it's not the Grinder, per se. Yes the Burrs are different and the resulting Grind will be affected, but... through a perfect storm of "I Don't Know What," I got textbook extraction through the Basket and a beautiful and lush shot with tiger-stripe crema, great body/mouthfeel and strong chocolate flavor profile (though the latter isn't necessarily what I target ).

All in all, I'm super happy with the Grinder itself. @xray , I can't obviously promise you will be happy, yourself, but it certainly seems @Timmeon is pretty happy with his DF83 experience, too.

Thing I haven't done yet is check the alignment. I think I will play with that on an upcoming day when I have some, err, free time. *fingers crossed

 

[ryanosaur]

Fun trivial info-snack... Or serious eye-roll material...

I was perusing some coffee sites, thinking again about the Blind Shaker Conversation and other "hacks" like filter papers, screens, etc, and I landed on an article about changing Baskets and Shower Screens. I didn't think to save the link, but short version is that the guy suggests that Cafes should be changing these items monthly, and the home user should do so annually. Author basically suggests that due to heat and pressure over time, the baskets and screens will lose their efficacy, especially ones made with tighter tolerances like the VST Baskets.

Now I know my cafes didn't do this and getting such maintenance was like pulling teeth... but I wonder how accurate this suggestion ay be?

Thoughts?

 

[Count Arthur]

Fun trivial info-snack... Or serious eye-roll material...

I was perusing some coffee sites, thinking again about the Blind Shaker Conversation and other "hacks" like filter papers, screens, etc, and I landed on an article about changing Baskets and Shower Screens. I didn't think to save the link, but short version is that the guy suggests that Cafes should be changing these items monthly, and the home user should do so annually. Author basically suggests that due to heat and pressure over time, the baskets and screens will lose their efficacy, especially ones made with tighter tolerances like the VST Baskets.

Now I know my cafes didn't do this and getting such maintenance was like pulling teeth... but I wonder how accurate this suggestion ay be?

Thoughts?

Who wrote the article? The Filter Basket and Shower Screen Manufacturers Association perhaps?

 

[D!sco]

I find a bottom paper filter (~55mm) does an incredible job at evening out extraction through resistance. It also lowers the pressure of a shot and increases flow rate, which allows a finer grind. The puck saturation this allows gives me a lot more leeway in grind size, though body suffers if that's your thing. I've started to use a declining pressure profile to add body back into my shots. The flow rate is static, but as the puck dissolves, pressure decreases. I don't really know why, but this decrease in pressure allows more fine material through? Tasting different pressure profile shots back to back is enlightening if you have the capability.

 

[xray]

I find a bottom paper filter (~55mm) does an incredible job at evening out extraction through resistance. It also lowers the pressure of a shot and increases flow rate, which allows a finer grind.

I'm not getting this statement. I use a bottom filter paper as well and agree it evens out the flow across the puck but my pump pressure gauge shows an increase not decrease.

 

[xray]

Author basically suggests that due to heat and pressure over time, the baskets and screens will lose their efficacy, especially ones made with tighter tolerances like the VST Baskets.

I seriously doubt there is any wear on the screen or basket at the flow rates used. The only effect may be mineral deposits if you have hard water. Regular cleaning would easily solve that issue.

 

[D!sco]

I'm not getting this statement. I use a bottom filter paper as well and agree it evens out the flow across the puck but my pump pressure gauge shows an increase not decrease.

Not sure I get it either, but my gaggiuino graphs the output and it is clearly 2-3 bar lower when using a paper filter and the same grind

 

[Titurel]

Fun trivial info-snack... Or serious eye-roll material...

I was perusing some coffee sites, thinking again about the Blind Shaker Conversation and other "hacks" like filter papers, screens, etc, and I landed on an article about changing Baskets and Shower Screens. I didn't think to save the link, but short version is that the guy suggests that Cafes should be changing these items monthly, and the home user should do so annually. Author basically suggests that due to heat and pressure over time, the baskets and screens will lose their efficacy, especially ones made with tighter tolerances like the VST Baskets.

Now I know my cafes didn't do this and getting such maintenance was like pulling teeth... but I wonder how accurate this suggestion ay be?

Thoughts?

The steel in the screens and baskets is subject to hot water under pressure. Routine cleaning of both items is done with a corrosive. Some change in their filter geometry would seem likely. Whether that change is beneficial (breaking in period) or detrimental (wearing out period) is open to question. Now, considering how much you spend annually on your coffee hobby (addiction), is the price of a new screen and basket that significant? Not really. Now, consider whether the gradual compression of the gasket (between brew head and basket) might be far more important. I'd say, replace the gasket twice a year and the basket and screen once a year (or not) and stop worrying about stuff that is fiscally way down in the noise.

 

[ryanosaur]

Who wrote the article? The Filter Basket and Shower Screen Manufacturers Association perhaps?

I seriously doubt there is any wear on the screen or basket at the flow rates used. The only effect may be mineral deposits if you have hard water. Regular cleaning would easily solve that issue.

Right? Believe me when I say I’m on the eye-roll side of this question.

While I’m not opposed to changing them out, as a home user I would expect these to last more to the tune of 2-3 years unless one damages them in some way.
In contrast, I could definitely see the benefit of changing the gasket annually. *shrugs

Count: I read a bunch of cr@p that night, but perhaps the name Savrin or Saubrin? Or I read something unrelated that referenced said person… *shrugs again

 

[ryanosaur]

The steel in the screens and baskets is subject to hot water under pressure. Routine cleaning of both items is done with a corrosive. Some change in their filter geometry would seem likely. Whether that change is beneficial (breaking in period) or detrimental (wearing out period) is open to question. Now, considering how much you spend annually on your coffee hobby (addiction), is the price of a new screen and basket that significant? Not really. Now, consider whether the gradual compression of the gasket (between brew head and basket) might be far more important. I'd say, replace the gasket twice a year and the basket and screen once a year (or not) and stop worrying about stuff that is fiscally way down in the noise.

I agree. Not worth worrying over in daily life. But that’s the fun part of a coffee thread on an audio forum where folk quibble over inaudible levels of distortion.

 

[xray]

@ryanosaur and @Timmeon, thanks for all the feedback on the grinders. I'm not convinced of the need for adjustable speed. I'm juggling enough variables already! My other concern is the DF83V may have too big a footprint for my already tight espresso station. I may even go with the DF64 over the DF83 just because it takes up less room and I can spend the difference on upgrading the burrs possibly.

We are in the midst of a postal strike in Canada so my letter to Santa won't get delivered. I might have to buy it myself

 

[ryanosaur]

Variable or no, the 83 is possibly overkill.
*crying-laughing

I suspect I would’ve been happy with a 64, myself. The silence of the brushless motor was one of the bigger draws for me.

 

[Titurel]

I agree. Not worth worrying over in daily life. But that’s the fun part of a coffee thread on an audio forum where folk quibble over inaudible levels of distortion.

Absolutely. You're talking to someone who keeps a distributor and 3 different tamper on his counter (and several more in the drawer). Seriously delusional. BTW, I'm also a member the 83mm overkill cult, a Ceado E37S. And I've also been known to roast my own. (Bullet R1)

 

[D!sco]

My 270Wi is back and man am I ready to get back to not weighing anything by hand ever again.

If I were to have bought a new machine, the DF64/83 would have been an easy go-to. Great to hear how well it's working out @ryanosaur. Maybe in a few years we'll get a decent comparison of what they're like in the long term. I suspect a larger burr would hold up much better if anyone could keep from trying a new one every few months.