• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Coax, optical, ethernet, USB, HDMI....

Phelonious Ponk

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Feb 26, 2016
Messages
859
Likes
215
This is an issue that was introduced in a battle over in Fight Club. There, it was just a diversionary tactic. You know, kinda of like when you ask a politician about birth control and he tells you how bad your tie is...it had nothing to do with the conversation over there, but it is a good question or two, so I thought I'd ask it here...

What is the real sonic difference between the ways we move digital signals? In the audiophile world, USB is king, but you see a lot of ethernet and SPDF in studios. Toslink, at least in audiophile circles, has a bad rep for high jitter. Is that real? Should it just completely be avoided or is it dependent on implementation, cable length, DAC, etc? Can 3 feet of optical well-implemented through a DAC with good jitter rejection be better than 9 feet of USB? Than 3 feet of USB?

Some folks seem to think these are very small things; that the difference between coax and USB for example, is real, but rarely audible. Others seem to think it's the difference between mid-fi and high fidelity. Who is right?

I have used USB, optical and coax, in the same system, and I really can't say I could hear a difference, even through really good headphones. But as I've said before, I'm no trained listener, and I don't care to learn how to listen to artifacts. So maybe I'm not listening for the right things. Or maybe I'm just half-deaf after nearly 50 years of playing live music.

Tim
 
Last edited:

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,294
Likes
9,851
Location
NYC
Some folks seem to think these are very small things; that the difference between coax and USB for example, is real, but rarely audible. Others seem to think it's the difference between mid-fi and high fidelity. Who is right?
Assuming that you are getting the same signal throughput and using the same playback hardware, the latter is clearly an exaggeration. Then again, when are such things so carefully compared and are such simplified comparisons relevant in the real world?

Fixed
 
Last edited:

AJ Soundfield

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,001
Likes
68
Location
Tampa FL
Some folks seem to think these are very small things; that the difference between coax and USB for example, is real, but rarely audible. Others seem to think it's the difference between mid-fi and high fidelity. Who is right?
Assuming that you are getting the same signal throughput and using the same playback hardware, the latter is clearly an exaggeration. Then again, when are such things so carefully compared and are such simplified comparisons relevant in the real world?

Kal, your message is missing.
FIFY
 

PaulyT

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
34
Likes
22
Location
Baltimore
I've always thought that as long as the bandwidth of the digital transport is adequate, so that the bits all arrive "as is" at the input of the DAC, that there's no audible difference. How could there be if the digital data is unchanged from the original media?

Maybe that's overly simplistic but I've done experiments and I can't hear any difference between e.g. a CD player hooked directly to a DAC (spdif coax), vs. FLAC ripped CD sent wirelessly via squeezebox (hooked to DAC via optical toslink).
 

AJ Soundfield

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,001
Likes
68
Location
Tampa FL
Well, if anyone claims an audible difference, all we would need is a valid listening test
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,595
Likes
239,632
Location
Seattle Area
S/PDIF has had a long gestation period so even non-high-end solutions achieve excellent performance. HDMI on the other hand is produced for video applications and not high-end audio. If used as is, that is, with existing silicon as the clock generator (derived from video), it can have pretty high jitter/distortion. However, as I explained in my article, http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...s/a-deep-dive-into-hdmi-audio-performance.56/, the ones I measured had components that would get covered by masking.

One of the issues with HDMI it never gets measured these days. HDMI is in consumer products so Stereophile doesn't test them. And the magazines that cover home theater products, don't measure HDMI. So it remains an unknown.

As to USB, if it is async and nicely isolated from the source, it is an excellent solution because it "rights" the architectural problems in audio. That is, it puts the DAC in control rather than the source.
 
OP
Phelonious Ponk

Phelonious Ponk

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Feb 26, 2016
Messages
859
Likes
215
Oh. Thanks.
S/PDIF has had a long gestation period so even non-high-end solutions achieve excellent performance. HDMI on the other hand is produced for video applications and not high-end audio. If used as is, that is, with existing silicon as the clock generator (derived from video), it can have pretty high jitter/distortion. However, as I explained in my article, http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...s/a-deep-dive-into-hdmi-audio-performance.56/, the ones I measured had components that would get covered by masking.

One of the issues with HDMI it never gets measured these days. HDMI is in consumer products so Stereophile doesn't test them. And the magazines that cover home theater products, don't measure HDMI. So it remains an unknown.

As to USB, if it is async and nicely isolated from the source, it is an excellent solution because it "rights" the architectural problems in audio. That is, it puts the DAC in control rather than the source.

Long gestation period?

Tim
 

TBone

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
1,191
Likes
348
One of the issues with HDMI it never gets measured these days. HDMI is in consumer products so Stereophile doesn't test them. And the magazines that cover home theater products, don't measure HDMI. So it remains an unknown.

I'd like to see a HDMI test concerning shielding properties.

All the hdmi cables I've used to date, some more $$$ than others, have interfered with my OTA signal, to one degree or another.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 4, 2016
Messages
1,440
Likes
633
It is a very fair question about these various transmission media to the DAC. USB is easily the most popular and widespread. Many DACs support only USB, some maybe two of the choices and not many support 3 or more. So, objective comparisons via the same DAC are problematical in trying to answer the question completely of "which is best sounding?"

It is also a question of the specific implementation. As always, a specific piece of gear might not tell us what is possible in a best case scenario with a particular transmission protocol. Or, a specific piece of gear with a well implemented transmission protocol might mislead us about other, inferior implementations. Books/covers?

My impression is that plastic fiber Toslik is by far the least respected among those you mentioned. It is limited in bandwidth - 96k stereo, I believe - and seems to populate only mid-fi and lesser gear. Glass fiber optical, like AT&T and Theta's Single Mode, was once considered "top dog" in some of the best gear, but those have disappeared. I think there might still be glass fiber used in some pro recording setups.

Coax was once demonized by measurement gurus as high jitter in the early days of separate DACs. But, Amir's measurements of his Levinson DAC indicate it can indeed be pretty good, at least in that one implementation. However, Coax does not handle above 192k and it is stereo only on each wire. It does not seem to be the path to the future, and most PCs do not have coax out. It is more for legacy DACs with coax input.

USB is justly the most popular in consumer gear. It is cheap, reliable and has excellent bandwidth for most all hi rez audio available today, even in Mch. And, it is two-way, unlike coax. That has facilitated the asynchronous USB protocol, now almost universal, which effectively eliminates jitter by making the DAC clock, not the player clock, the master, as Amir points out. Its major downside in use is that it is limited to 5 meters in length without special extenders, some of which may rely on an Ethernet intermediary.

Yet, it is a favorite passtime of computer audiophiles to constantly bash USB with unproven claims of this and that deficiency, requiring this and that add on dodad to "fix" its "known" problems. Many think it the devil incarnate, "not suitable for audio", based on no or precious little objective data. But, I am happy to use it and it works great for me without tweaks or overpriced cables. Again, that might be implementation dependent. My DAC is claimed to be galvanically isolated, which might give me above average results.

I first got turned on to USB in playing ripped Blu-rays from a hard drive to an Oppo 93. Many friends and I tried this, and not one of us ever heard or saw the slightest audio/video difference between that high bandwidth playback via synchronous USB 2.0 and the same silver BD disk via the same player, all with very unexotic cables and gear. Asynchronous USB is purportedly better still than synchronous was. So, I am totally unmoved by the unsubstantiated USB bashing everywhere until such time as someone can show me why it is inferior.

There is not much in consumer gear yet for Ethernet directly to the DAC, and what is available tends to be pricey, except in HT AVRs, etc. But, it it is somewhat trickier in setup than USB. The HT and inexpensive versions generally require DLNA/UPnP software protocols which are not very robust. Objective data on Ethernet's superiority to USB is something I have not seen anywhere. But, Ethernet has no length limits in the typical home plus very high bandwidth, but it is not plug' play like USB typically is.

HDMI is not common for audio-only to a DAC. But, it is a decent, if typically higher jitter, protocol in HT environments.

There are also "I2S" types of transmission involving the transmission of clock pulses from a player to a DAC, both properly equipped for that, usually involving a DIY retrofit with PCs. Various signal cable scenarios are used with that, coax often, with a separate lead for the master clock pulses from the player. Allegedly, it can improve jitter performance, but there can still be jitter on the clock feed itself. I do not see what it offers over properly isolated asynch USB. Best to have the master clock very close to the DAC chip inside the DAC, I think, as with asynch USB.

For mysterious reasons and without proof, audiophiles seem to raise unfounded issues about data integrity all the time. Forget about it until you see proof positive, which after many years still has not materialized. Also, asynch USB has verifiably the lowest jitter, yet computer audiophiles everywhere (even a few in this forum) continue to talk about jitter as a prevalent, unsolved problem with USB. It 'taint so.

The esoterica about the "awful downsides" of USB relate mainly to noise transmitted via the power, not the signal, leads in the USB protocol. I, personally, do not feel that is an issue with proper implementation in the DAC.

But, of course, we have all the mystical, unmeasured, unproven claims by Swenson and many others about why their magic USB add-on box works wonders in overcoming the nasties in USB. Don't fall for that, unless, miraculously, Swenson can someday fulfill his promise to provide measured, objective evidence to back up the claims he seems to have come upon while listening to his 1950's Lowther drivers in cardboard tube baffles suspended by wires from his ceiling.
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,167
Likes
16,873
Location
Central Fl
With all the recent charges placed against USB of late, noise, etc; a while back I decided to try some things. I got a very nice 1/2 meter toslink cable from BlueJean and changed over. My Emotiva DC-1 claims "An advanced switchable asynchronous sample rate converter (ASRC) re-clocks the data at the same sample rate as the incoming signal, to dramatically reduce jitter" for it's datastream so in theory it should supply as good if not better than the performance with USB as it's now 100% galvanically isolated.
I get totally reliable 24/192 operation and SQ is just fine IMHO. So that is what I'm currently using.
Do I now have to turn in my audiophile union card?
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,167
Likes
16,873
Location
Central Fl
My impression is that plastic fiber Toslik is by far the least respected among those you mentioned. It is limited in bandwidth - 96k stereo, I believe - and seems to populate only mid-fi and lesser gear. Glass fiber optical, like AT&T and Theta's Single Mode, was once considered "top dog" in some of the best gear, but those have disappeared. I think there might still be glass fiber used in some pro recording setups.
There is not a limitation on the Toslink optical design it self, but can be a limitation of the transmitting or receiving gear designs. As mentioned above I get totally reliable operation at 24/192
 

Opus111

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Messages
666
Likes
38
Location
Zhejiang
Well, if anyone claims an audible difference, all we would need is a valid listening test

Indeed so - with the meaning of 'valid' only defined if the result is a positive, so as to exclude said test from validity.
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
191
Location
Australia
For mysterious reasons and without proof, audiophiles seem to raise unfounded issues about data integrity all the time. Forget about it until you see proof positive, which after many years still has not materialized. Also, asynch USB has verifiably the lowest jitter, yet computer audiophiles everywhere (even a few in this forum) continue to talk about jitter as a prevalent, unsolved problem with USB. It 'taint so.

The esoterica about the "awful downsides" of USB relate mainly to noise transmitted via the power, not the signal, leads in the USB protocol. I, personally, do not feel that is an issue with proper implementation in the DAC..
And this is 100% true. Digital music data always has full integrity while it remains in the digital world, assuming half reasonable engineering; but at some 'terrible' moment it finally has to revert to analogue, when some damage may be done on the journey to your ears.

The great black hole is "proper implementation" of the conversation of digital to analogue, and the chain from then on - everyone disagrees on how much work has to be done to get it sufficiently right. IME, more has to be done then is the usual effort, and I tweak systems so that part is effectively far most robust in operation than the raw implementation.

IF the engineering is good enough, then absolutely no-one should hear any difference, no matter how the digital audio is shipped around. If someone does perceive a variation, then the designers, etc need to do more work ...
 

NorthSky

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
4,998
Likes
944
Location
Canada West Coast/Vancouver Island/Victoria area
I know nothing about USB cables; the one I use came with the phone inside the box...probably two bucks.

HDMI has very tiny wires inside (19); no wonder they are not part of the ultra hi-fi rigs in audiophile music rooms.
Audiophiles use analog interconnects, XLR balanced.

Between coax and opt, I prefer coax. But I don't use those connections anymore; HDMI took over.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

Ethernet cables? I use the one that came with the modem, in less than 1% of the time. Wi-Fi @ 99%
___________

How long till we have $10,000 USB cables and $20,000 HDMI cables you think?
And not all Wi-Fi operate the same I guess?

Those are real cables in real life actual use; underground.
ColossusSM1000PowerCable.jpg
ColossusSM3000PowerCord.jpg

The first one is a power cable, and the second one ↑ a power cord, Colossus brand, roughly 27 pounds a foot.
 

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
10,260
Likes
16,305
Location
uk, taunton
When ever I have used optical toslink, the sound has seemed thin. Lacking weight compared to coax. Never really compared hdmi, or USB on the same device.

Why? Maybe we can find out. I will say it's been some time since I tried it and my thoughts go back long before I was interested in hifi.

With the right cable lifters all these methods can sound acceptable.
 
Top Bottom