Closed or semi-open headphones with wide soundstage

[Graph Feppar]

I love wide soundstage, the wider the better for me. Most closed headphones have bad or non-existant soundstage but I read that there are some that have good soundstage width. Yesterday I was in shop and I tried the Sony A1 m2 and they suprised me with how wide the soundstage was, never heard closed can with such width.

I want to get closed or semi open headphone with wide soundstage, I can live with poor diffuse imaging but I hate narrow soundstage. I read that Fostex TH900 and its variants and Sony Z7/Z1R have wide soundstage even though their isolation is kind of weak for closed headphones. I have also read that Audioquest Nighthawk have some soundstage width but others say its narrow so I dont know who to believe.

I am thinking about 1A m2 (200€), the Z7 m2 (660€) and Nighthawks (400€). The 1A m2 is cheap and extremly comfortable, it weights half the weight of other two but I am worried about distortion. I saw measurements for 1R, the 1A predecessor and original 1A and they both had too much sub bass distortion and then distortion spike at 5 KHz probably due to cone breakup mode.

Out of box stock frequency response is irrelevant to me, I would EQ them all to be kind of like HD600 so FR is not a issue but the problem is distortion, you cant EQ distortion out, distortion sucks. Sony puts these ports into their headphones and I saw that Marv from SBAF measure original Z7 with port mod and it lowered bass distortion by massive amount. I also saw solderdude mod the 1R ports and it removed the bass hump, he didnt measure distortion but I expect same bass distortion reduction.

The real issue is that awful 5KHz cone breakup, thats inherent to the driver, playing with ports wont fix that. I saw Z7 m2 measurements and the distortion was much lower than original Z7 or 1R/A. I dont know if Marv mod to reduce the bass distortion further is possible but it doesnt have that 5KHz cancer so thats important.The Nighthawk have super low distortion, but I dont know how wide is its soundstage.


If you could rate the soundstage width from 1 = crappy closed headphone to 10 = HD800, or alternatively from narrowest to widest, how would you rate following headphones? HD6X0, HD800, AKG 701, Nighthawk, 1A m2 ,Z7 m2

 

[RayDunzl]

Use some kind of signal processing to get that wide sound you crave.

(Sorry, no suggestions. Somebody should have some)

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't know what they do, but various AKG phones I've used have a wide soundstage. So try the appropriate one or two for your budget. That includes the 701. I've not used the others in your list to compare.

 

[Graph Feppar]

Use some kind of signal processing to get that wide sound you crave.

(Sorry, no suggestions. Somebody should have some)

No need to be sorry, thats actually genius idea. If I could harness the power of ultra low distortion Nighhawks and spice it up with DSP created HD800 like soundstage, that would be dream come true. I am not sure if its possible though, all the soundstage enhancers I tried sounded bad, none of them was as good as headphone that has inherently wide stage due to its shape.

I think this whole soundstage thing is very personal, variable from person to person that means people use all these words but it means different thing to different people. For example I never experienced any sense of depth or anything vertical. I just sense how wide the sound is and imaging for me means how precisely can I locate the sound position from center to the far end of soundstage width.

All these stage enhancers sounded like some form of reverb to me, I guess thats what soundstage means to some people, to make it sound like some room or hall but that is not what I want. I want just the width, I dont want my headphones to sound like speakers.

What Windows or Android software you suggest to enhance the stage width?

 

[Graph Feppar]

I don't know what they do, but various AKG phones I've used have a wide soundstage. So try the appropriate one or two for your budget. That includes the 701. I've not used the others in your list to compare.

I want closed or semi open headphones, furthermore AKG have distortion spikes in treble, I dont want that.

 

[RayDunzl]

All these stage enhancers sounded like some form of reverb to me

How much did you pay?

Ok, two suggestions to investigate:

https://www.theoretica.us/bacch-dsp/

https://smyth-research.com/

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https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?search/140750/&q=bacch&o=relevance

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?search/140753/&q=smyth&o=relevance

 

[mitchco]

@Graph Feppar Do you use JRiver Media Center? They have a built in spatializer: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Headphones

You can also check out KVRaudio which is the VST marketplace for plugins, again if you are using JRiver or a software player that can host VST plugins. A quick search yields some results, but you would have to sort through to dump the ones that are reverb based. The Haas effect is more what you are looking for width. Hope this helps: https://www.kvraudio.com/plugins/sp...-panner/ambisonics-binaural/ambisonics/newest

 

[Fone]

That HD800 has a wonderful open sound that makes me forget I am wearing headphones.

I don't really know what soundstage is. And I haven't found any closed headphones that I like. So there's that.

The beautiful Sony Z1R is an interesting approach with the big domed paper cup; I quite like them and they take the best of closed- and open-backed design in my view (nice bass, relative isolation, open sound). They have more sound leakage than typical closed-back headphones. They are expensive but one of my very favourite headphones. I own a different Sony headphone with the "same" huge 70mm driver and use it every day (cost $300 but no longer sold). The Sony Z7 shares the "same" driver and is a wonderfully built headphone but maybe not quite my favorite maybe due to the hard cups' impact on sound. These Sony headphones are industrial engineering marvels with respect to design, materials, fit and finish.

Another option is good IEMs. The tips that enter your ear might indicate level of sound isolation. Maybe the hard plastic shells are akin to open-backed and silicone rubber tips are closer to semi-closed back.

Sennheiser had the 800ie with soft silicone tips so the sound isolation was probably not so different from that of semi-closed backed headphones. I found the sound varied a lot unit-to-unit so try the exact unit you will buy. Also the irritating stiff carbon fibre cable was prone to failure and probably not fixable by DIY (it might have been very microphonic when walking but I can't remember). There is an updated model 800s that seems to have different wires. JVC had some excellent IEMs although I fear those are sold only in wealthy Asian markets, not Europe or the US as far as I can tell. I didn't like the BA approach at all but YMMV.

I don't like the HD6X0 or the 701 so can't help you there.

With headphones, people's opinions vary widely and are entirely unreliable. The form factor requires massive design compromises so measurements don't help much either. You really should book a vacation to Asia and spend some time in the huge headphone stores and spend a few days trying out headphones and IEMs. Many of the higher-quality headphones are not sold in western markets. Then make your own decision based on your ears, music types, and preferences.

 

[RayDunzl]

I usually just buy something and live with it.

But if you want to go shopping...

 

[flipflop]

If you could rate the soundstage width from 1 = crappy closed headphone to 10 = HD800, or alternatively from narrowest to widest, how would you rate following headphones? HD6X0, HD800, AKG 701, Nighthawk, 1A m2 ,Z7 m2

6.0, 8.7, 6.8, N/A, 5.8, N/A

The closed headphones/headsets, with the highest soundstage scores (measured by Rtings.com), are the following: Logitech G533 (7.3), Cougar Immersa (7.3), HyperX Cloud Revolver (7.2), Astro A20 (7.1), Koss QZPro (7.0).

Semi-open is a marketing term. Measurement reveal the isolation and leakage performance is identical to that of open-back headphones.

 

[Graph Feppar]

6.0, 8.7, 6.8, N/A, 5.8, N/A

The closed headphones/headsets, with the highest soundstage scores (measured by Rtings.com), are the following: Logitech G533 (7.3), Cougar Immersa (7.3), HyperX Cloud Revolver (7.2), Astro A20 (7.1), Koss QZPro (7.0).

Semi-open is a marketing term. Measurement reveal the isolation and leakage performance is identical to that of open-back headphones.

I already read the whole rtings website but I appreciate your effort to help me.

Semi open is NOT a marketing term, "Measurement reveal the isolation and leakage performance is identical to that of open-back headphones" measurements of what? Are you claiming all semi open headphones have isolation like open back?

I suggest you look at Audioquest Nighthawk at Innerfidelity, it have isolation like closed headphone despite being semi open, Fostex T50 same thing. Semi open headphones are real, its not just marketing BS.

 

[flipflop]

measurements of what?

Passive noise isolation across the audible band and leakage at 1 ft.

Are you claiming all semi open headphones have isolation like open back?

Yes, more or less. The difference isn't big enough to make a distinction between the two.
All the "semi-open" headphones, with the exception of a pair of IEMs, measure poorly in the isolation test.

I suggest you look at Audioquest Nighthawk at Innerfidelity, it have isolation like closed headphone despite being semi open

Since the investigation of the AKG K1000, isolation measurements on IF have been iffy, showing lower numbers/more isolation than they should. This was pointed out to Tyll several times, but he never bothered fixing it before he retired. The NightHawk was measured in that time period. I don't consider those measurements valid.

Fostex T50 same thing.

Fostex T50 Broadband Isolation in dB (100Hz to 10kHz): -5 dBr
Fostex T50RP Mk3 Broadband Isolation in dB (100Hz to 10kHz): -7 dBr
Both are quite poor.

 

[Graph Feppar]

1. The difference absolutely is big enough to make distinction between the two, semi-open headphones isolate more than closed headphones.


2. The K1000 isolation WTF factor comes from its bass isolation peak, it happens becose the driver acts as tuned absorber. People make these DIY and put them in rooms to tame bass peaks. There is nothing wrong with the Tylls measurements.

3. Yes, the semi-open headphones have less sound isolation than closed headphones. I never argued against that, my point is that they are on average significantly better in this regard than open headphones.
Looking at broad band isolation numbers is little missleading, its much better to compare the frequency graphs. I am too lazy to post Innerfidelity HD800 graph overlaid on top of Nighthawk or T50RP graph but I suggest all readers to go there and have a look.

 

[headwhacker]

Try out the MrSpeakers Aeon Flow closed. So far the closest I can find to an open-back headphone experience. But don't expect a near HD800 experience.

 

[bboris77]

I can highly recommend the Beyerdynamic DT 150 as an affordable closed headphone with wide soundstage. It is not as wide as the Q701 which is borderline unnatural, but it is definitely great for a closed headphone. It is at least as wide as the Sennheiser HD600.

 

[Guermantes]

@Graph Feppar
You can also check out KVRaudio which is the VST marketplace for plugins, again if you are using JRiver or a software player that can host VST plugins. A quick search yields some results, but you would have to sort through to dump the ones that are reverb based. The Haas effect is more what you are looking for width. Hope this helps: https://www.kvraudio.com/plugins/sp...-panner/ambisonics-binaural/ambisonics/newest

iZotope have a free plugin:
https://www.izotope.com/en/products/master-and-deliver/ozone/ozone-imager.html

But then, I'm not quite sure what a wide "soundstage" is in headphones. Many people seem to want the opposite -- for them to sound more like listening to speakers, thus the interest in crossfeed to effectively reduce the isolation of channels that headphones impose.

Are soundstage differences an effect of colouration/resonances giving you a psychological "closed-in" effect (much like the comb filtering when you put two cups or even just your hands over your ears)?

 

[Guermantes]

I usually just buy something and live with it.

But if you want to go shopping...

I had a fun listening session last time I was in Yodobashi's Shinjuku store. Phenomenal, though some potential health issues.

 

[headwhacker]

I had a fun listening session last time I was in Yodobashi's Shinjuku store. Phenomenal, though some potential health issues.

Yodobashi has massive collection of audio gears, but you have to visit the specialty audio shops like e-earphone in Akihabara. It is something else like an audiophile's equivalent of p0rn shop.