Clipping... So, is it even possible to damage these speakers with this amp?

[Chr1]

Apologies if this appears to be a stupid question, but I am still unsure of this.

The speakers can take massive power, so I'm thinking : no.


Amplifier: Topping Mini 300

Output Power (4Ω): 140W × 2 (THD+N <10%) | 125W × 2 (THD+N <1%)
Output Power (8Ω): 85W × 2 (THD+N <10%) | 65W × 2 (THD+N <1%)



Speakers: Tannoy T300s

Power Handling:
Average: 300 watts
Programme: 600 watts
Peak (10ms): 1200 watts
Sensitivity: 100 dB (2.83V @ 1m)
Maximum SPL: 128dB (Average) / 134dB (Peak)
Impedance: 8 ohms (Nominal)



Thanks in advance!

 

[staticV3]

No, you cannot damage the Tannoy T300s with an intact Mini 300.

Your ears will give out, likely before you so much as approach the Topping's output limit.

 

[Chr1]

Thanks. This is what I thought. I guess this begs the question however: Is it possible to drive the Topping into clipping to the extent that it could actually damage the speakers?

I understand that it would be very loud and most likely sound bad. There seems to be a lot of speculation on this from what I can make out. As I mentioned in another thread, I just wish more amps had switchable clipping indicators. (If only because I suspect it can often be quite difficult to identify the early onset of clipping.)

Incidentally, I have never played it loud enough to notice any indication of clipping. I think my neighbours would most have the police round fairly quickly!

 

[staticV3]

Is it possible to drive the Topping into clipping to the extent that it could actually damage the speakers?

The Topping has overload protection so likely not.

In any case, with 100dB/2.83V sensitivity, your hearing will no longer be around by the time the Mini 300 would go into protection.

 

[Sokel]

Luckily you sure use subs or else doesn't seem difficult to clip them with some relatively bass-heavy stuff based on that:

EQ a little, RC some more down there and you're out of power with every beat at some vivid listening section given a fair distance and big-ish room.
Add Tannoy's -10dB at 40's or something and...

 

[staticV3]

Luckily you sure use subs or else doesn't seem difficult to clip them with some relatively bass-heavy stuff based on that:

That's protection, not clipping:

 

[kemmler3D]

I think your only hope of breaking the speaker with that amp would be to deliver full power to the tweeter close to the xover, to maximise excursion. I can't find the power handling for the tweeter alone but I don't think you could break it that way, apparently it has its own protection circuit of some kind.

 

[Sokel]

That's protection, not clipping:
View attachment 543894

Protection is at 20Hz, does it do the same at 40Hz as early as 80W?
That's even worst then.

 

[Chr1]

Thanks. I am currently using a "Full Range" EQ preset for the T300s on the Tannoy TDX-1 system controller, which means that they are playing down to about 40/45 Hz. (With subs playing anything lower.) I do like to play fairy loud but have yet to hear any indication of clipping. As parts are unobtainable for the speakers, I definitely don't want to damage them.

 

[staticV3]

Protection is at 20Hz, does it do the same at 40Hz as early as 80W?
That's even worst then.

1. We don't know the signal duration of Amir's Max power and Power vs SINAD tests, therefore have no way to relate the findings to real world use.

2. If anything, I'd strongly prefer the Amp go into protection than uncontrolled clipping.

 

[Sokel]

1. We don't know the signal duration of Amir's Max power and Power vs SINAD tests, therefore have no way to relate the findings to real world use.

2. If anything, I'd strongly prefer the Amp go into protection than uncontrolled clipping.

1. As I recall, there's multiple instances that he said it's in the ms range (chirps I guess? )
2. We're in perfect agreement about the bold.

 

[Chr1]

So, am I right in thinking that this amplifier is definitely going to shut down before damaging a tweeter?

Edit : Have attached the manual for the later model, the V300 below. Same driver, slightly different box.

Here's a screenshot of the relevant page :

 

[staticV3]

So, am I right in thinking that this amplifier is definitely going to shut down before damaging a tweeter?

The Mini 300 can output undistorted 20V per channel into your tweeters.

At 100 dB (2.83V @ 1m) sensitivity, this would result in 100+20*log10(20/2.83)=117dB SPL per speaker or 120dB for the pair.

120!

 

[Laika2]

The normal rule with any amp is you will hear the sound fall all apart and just turn into a unlistenable mess long before any damage to anything. Just turn it up slow till you get used to it's limitations. On the amp going into protection mode, most likely but not all or always. Trust your ears, once the sound starts falling apart turn it down a bit.

 

[OldHvyMec]

An absolute YES. One of the worst things you can do to a speaker/system is push the amp into clipping.

When an amp clips, it distorts the audio waveform into a squared wave. That change forces the speaker's voice coil to stop moving and holds it in place, creating excess heat and pushing unintended high-frequency energy directly into the tweeter. That burns out the speaker's voice coils. No matter the protection the crossover offers. Some XOs are better than others, and the more components between the VC and the input signal, the lower the chance of harm.

I've blown speakers, BUT in my early days when SS amps were fairly low wattage, it was pretty easy to fry a tweeter or mid with lower wattage amps 15-35 watts @ 8 ohms. 15-50 watts was pretty standard. 75 watts could just about push anything made in the 70-80-90s.

One speaker system that was almost bulletproof was the early Bose 901. If you could blow them in the 70-80s, you were doing something most people that had decent gear couldn't. I've seen demos of them being plugged into direct AC wall current to prove their toughness. They would do that demonstration and then plug them right back into Mcintosh MC600 MB, and blast away.

Regards

 

[kemmler3D]

It looks like the tweeter can only handle 70w continuously so you might be able to burn it out with the Mini 300 if you set out to do so.

However as @staticV3 notes you're going to fry your ears way before you fry the tweeter. If you are putting the speaker in danger it will not be subtly too loud, it will be literally deafening.

 

[markk]

An absolute YES. One of the worst things you can do to a speaker/system is push the amp into clipping.

When an amp clips, it distorts the audio waveform into a squared wave. That change forces the speaker's voice coil to stop moving and holds it in place, creating excess heat and pushing unintended high-frequency energy directly into the tweeter. That burns out the speaker's voice coils. No matter the protection the crossover offers. Some XOs are better than others, and the more components between the VC and the input signal, the lower the chance of harm.

I've blown speakers, BUT in my early days when SS amps were fairly low wattage, it was pretty easy to fry a tweeter or mid with lower wattage amps 15-35 watts @ 8 ohms. 15-50 watts was pretty standard. 75 watts could just about push anything made in the 70-80-90s.

One speaker system that was almost bulletproof was the early Bose 901. If you could blow them in the 70-80s, you were doing something most people that had decent gear couldn't. I've seen demos of them being plugged into direct AC wall current to prove their toughness. They would do that demonstration and then plug them right back into Mcintosh MC600 MB, and blast away.

Regards

This is the correct answer. The T300 LF driver does not appear to be a long throw woofer/sub. Seems to have a quasi accordion surround limiting its Xmax. In the low frequency range especially below port tuning, it may be possible to exceed the woofer's Xmax and it is possible, around the impedance peaks, to clip the voltage, and generate a stream of higher order distortion products that would heat up the tweeter's VC. Practically speaking you'd have auditory pain before this happened. But if you wear ear muffs and put a full range signal and crank the amp all the way up, yeah, high probability of damage. The protections circuitry is designed to protect the amp and may or may not save the speakers.

 

[Chr1]

Thanks folks. Feel better with the knowledge that I am unlikely to do any speaker damage damage, without either going deaf first. Or being pre-warned with either a shut down or clearly horrible sound.

I have several more powerful Crown Macro-Tech amplifiers, but would rather use the Topping as my daily driver, as it seems to be plenty loud enough for my present needs. Thankfully it appears to be coping fine currently, and barely gets warm.

Anyway, thanks again for the help.

 

[Mart68]

Those Tannoy speakers have a halogen bulb as protection for the tweeter and a fuse on the bass to prevent damage from clipping.

 

[Chr1]

Thanks. I wasn't actually aware of the fuse on the woofer. Also, never been entirely clear on whether these measures completely negate the risk of damage from amplifier clipping. Also, got to figure that given their power handling, the drivers are relatively robust, but I do want to be certain to avoid potential damage nonetheless. Cheers.