• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Classical Music for Audiophiles (remastered)

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,213
Likes
7,593
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
OP
BenB

BenB

Active Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2020
Messages
284
Likes
446
Location
Virginia
Here's a video about remastering Furtwangler.

Thanks. I watched the video. In his examples, the things he wanted to remove could easily be separated from the musical content, as they didn't exist at the same time and frequency. Looking at coughs in the Richter recording linked above (during The Old Castle), the cough and the music can partly overlap, and in fact the piano can change notes during the duration of the cough. It's really a nightmare because the noise is so loud that the piano harmonics are buried beneath it. Listening to The Old Castle feels like listening to a very noisy recording of an audience, that happened to accidentally capture some guy playing a piano.

Still, the idea of cutting out noises did prompt me to write a different version of my software. I wrote something to break the piece into 4 subcomponents: Signal Tones, Noise Tones, Signal Transients, and Noise Transients. The sum of these components is the original recording. It's interesting to listen to the subcomponents, as well as filter and mix them. So far I haven't been able to leverage the new code for any useful purpose, but it's a tool in my toolshed now.
 
OP
BenB

BenB

Active Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2020
Messages
284
Likes
446
Location
Virginia
Still, the idea of cutting out noises did prompt me to write a different version of my software. I wrote something to break the piece into 4 subcomponents: Signal Tones, Noise Tones, Signal Transients, and Noise Transients. The sum of these components is the original recording. It's interesting to listen to the subcomponents, as well as filter and mix them. So far I haven't been able to leverage the new code for any useful purpose, but it's a tool in my toolshed now.


It looks like I can utilize my ability to break audio down into tonal and transient subcomponents to help edit out unwanted noise. I attempted to edit out (or drastically reduce) the impact of a loud page turn in Urbs Roma (Symphony by Saint Saens). The page turn has frequency content that overlaps the music. However, the page turn is almost completely "transient" while the majority of the musical content at the time is "tonal". I used the "Spectral Edit Shelves" effect in audacity, while operating mostly on the "transient" subcomponents to drastically reduce the audibility of the page turn. I captured a few comparison shots that show how the song breaks down into subcomponents, as well as the results of my editing. The loudest part of the page turn occurs around 5.5 seconds into the sample, with a secondary click happening a little after 7 seconds in. Before and after audio are available in the attached zip file, in flac format.
 

Attachments

  • Page_Turn_Spectrogram_Audacity_Tones_Transients_Orig.png
    Page_Turn_Spectrogram_Audacity_Tones_Transients_Orig.png
    748.2 KB · Views: 90
  • Page_Turn_Spectrogram_Audacity_Tones_Transients_Edit.png
    Page_Turn_Spectrogram_Audacity_Tones_Transients_Edit.png
    742.1 KB · Views: 93
  • Page_Turn_Spectrogram_Audacity_Before_vs_After.png
    Page_Turn_Spectrogram_Audacity_Before_vs_After.png
    732.4 KB · Views: 98
  • Page_Turn_Flacs.zip
    816.2 KB · Views: 78
Last edited:

beagleman

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
1,159
Likes
1,582
Location
Pittsburgh Pa
I listen to a lot of classical music (the romantic period is my favorite) on my home audio system. I love the sound of a big symphony. It really stresses the audio reproduction in a way that few other things do, and it's so rewarding when everything falls into place, from the performance, the recording, and the playback. Unfortunately, some of my favorite pieces / performances have recordings that are flawed in some way. I find that if the background noise is too high, it takes me out of my zone. Also, if the spectral balance is off then I can't comfortably listen at high levels.

As an audiophile, I appreciate the conflicting desire to reduce excessive background noise while maintaining perfect fidelity of the underlying music. I tried a few commercial noise reduction products, and found that they weren't well suited for classical music. If I configured them to substantially reduce the background noise, they were always detrimental to the music, or introduced artifacts that were as offensive (or more) than the noise. In the end I wrote my own, and have been very satisfied with the results.

For years I've been de-noising music in my classical library. I recently started rebalancing the spectra as well. It occurred to me that others might appreciate this "remastering" of the music, so I started posting results to my youtube channel. I have a few audiophile favorites on there (Saint Saens Organ Symphony, for example), and feel that all the pieces I've done had a lot of potential, and with the minor issues addressed they have become very enjoyable and useful for appreciating a good playback system.

Here's the channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/alexdlrg

Here's the 1st movement of the Saint Saens Organ Symphony (noise reduction only, balance was good). The second movement can be found on the channel. I always post every movement to a piece.

Here's Borodin's Polovtsian Dances. (Incredible soundstage, recorded in 1966!)

If anyone can think of a recording that would benefit from some noise reduction and/or spectral rebalancing, please let me know. If I like the piece enough to add it to my library, I'll likely try my hand at "fixing" whatever is deficient.
I have a Saint Saens of the same performance that sounds Fantastic. It says "Remastered for CD", but not sure what that means. Did they just create a master, or actually modify the eq and use NR or not?

NO way to know, but it has "some" hiss for sure, but sounds great for the early 60s.

Or is THIS the same one you used?? Mine says 1962 for that selection.
IMG_2169.JPG
 
Last edited:
OP
BenB

BenB

Active Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2020
Messages
284
Likes
446
Location
Virginia
I used a telarc disc for the Saint Saens symphony #3. I believe it was recorded in 79 or 80, so not the same performance.
 

bkdc

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 28, 2022
Messages
274
Likes
269
There are so many modern "acceptable" (although maybe not artically your favorite) pristine well mastered recordings of modern high resolution vintage of most works that I find it hard to listen to pre 1980's classical recordings with the term "audiophile" attached to it. I own over 6000 classical CD's. There are so many labels that pay very close attention to mic'ing and mastering (my favorites are BIS, Chandos, Linn, Pentatone) and I have an aversion to major labels who release poorly mic'ed and mastered live performances (which is cheaper than doing a proper orchestral recording). People enjoy what they grew up with. But my ears just can't handle old mono recordings of Furtwangler when I can have a pristine recording with full detail, nuance, and wide stage/instrument separation on a modern BIS recording.

I did appreciate the Mercury Living Presence RCA remasterings aabout 3 decades ago but you can only do so much with poorer raw material. There is almost always a modern recording that stacks up artistically.

The Organ Symphony is a peculiar one because of the 16 Hz bass note which when properly reproduced on a subwoofer will probably induce nausea, and there are not many modern recordings in comparison to other major works.

It may be useful to try the Reference Recordings version of Michael Stern.
 
Last edited:

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,273
Likes
9,794
Location
NYC
It may be useful to try the Reference Recordings version of Michael Stern.
Good one. I also very much like another SACD from Philadelphia: Ondine ODE 1094-5
Saint-Saëns: Symphony No. 3 in C minor Op. 78 "Organ Symphony", Poulenc: Organ Concerto in G minor, Barber: Toccata Festiva
Olivier Latry (organ), Philadelphia Orchestra, Christoph Eschenbach (conductor)
4356.jpg
 

beagleman

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
1,159
Likes
1,582
Location
Pittsburgh Pa
There are so many modern "acceptable" (although maybe not artically your favorite) pristine well mastered recordings of modern high resolution vintage of most works that I find it hard to listen to pre 1980's classical recordings with the term "audiophile" attached to it. I own over 6000 classical CD's. There are so many labels that pay very close attention to mic'ing and mastering (my favorites are BIS, Chandos, Linn, Pentatone) and I have an aversion to major labels who release poorly mic'ed and mastered live performances (which is cheaper than doing a proper orchestral recording). People enjoy what they grew up with. But my ears just can't handle old mono recordings of Furtwangler when I can have a pristine recording with full detail, nuance, and wide stage/instrument separation on a modern BIS recording.

I did appreciate the Mercury Living Presence RCA remasterings aabout 3 decades ago but you can only do so much with poorer raw material. There is almost always a modern recording that stacks up artistically.

The Organ Symphony is a peculiar one because of the 16 Hz bass note which when properly reproduced on a subwoofer will probably induce nausea, and there are not many modern recordings in comparison to other major works.

It may be useful to try the Reference Recordings version of Michael Stern.


What are your favorite Mahler and Sibelius recordings? (Sound quality wise)

I have some late 80s Mahler with Zubin Mehta on the London label I like a lot.

I was considering this release - https://www.ebay.com/itm/175127006384 But would like some insight into how good it sounds also.


Are you a fan of Nielsen?
 

beagleman

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
1,159
Likes
1,582
Location
Pittsburgh Pa
I used a telarc disc for the Saint Saens symphony #3. I believe it was recorded in 79 or 80, so not the same performance.


Oddly after just a quick listen to your example, it did not sound all that different than my Vintage Sony Essential Classics at least from the first few minutes.
 

JJB70

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
2,905
Likes
6,148
Location
Singapore
I find that if I listen to classical music and start thinking about the recorded quality that it says more about the performance in most cases. There are no doubt some real stinkers but in most cases I can listen to old recordings and not really notice the short comings of the recording quality if it's a good performance, when I can't it is generally because the performance is not doing anything for me. One of the problems with audiophile labels has always been that they are more concerned with the recording than music content, I would rather listen to music and performance I like first.
 

bkdc

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 28, 2022
Messages
274
Likes
269
For Sibelius symphonies as a set, I prefer Vanska. I posted elsewhere that the Sibelius violin concerto with Akko Suwanai is superlative both from the quality of the recording and the artistry. I haven’t found a true audiophile complete set of Mahler that is satisfying but a few of Ivan Fischer’s recordings on Channel Classics stand out. Symphonies 2 and 4 are highly recommended. As a set, I prefer Fischer. Chailly’s symphony 3 and 9 on Decca also. I have the whole set of MTT and the SFSO which was highly touted but I dislike live recordings.
 
Last edited:

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,213
Likes
7,593
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
I used a telarc disc for the Saint Saens symphony #3. I believe it was recorded in 79 or 80, so not the same performance.
If so, it was early digital.

maxresdefault.jpg
 

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,273
Likes
9,794
Location
NYC
I haven’t found a true audiophile complete set of Mahler that is satisfying but a few of Ivan Fischer’s recordings on Channel Classics stand out. Symphonies 2 and 4 are highly recommended. As a set, I prefer Fischer. Chailly’s symphony 3 and 9 on Decca also. I have the whole set of MTT and the SFSO which was highly touted but I dislike live recordings.
For sound, per se, try Markus Stenz (conductor), Gurzenich Orchestra Köln on Oehms Classics.
 
Last edited:

beagleman

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
1,159
Likes
1,582
Location
Pittsburgh Pa
I know. I know I will stop grabbing them some day. Sure.
Kal, I just grabbed a Symphony 1 and 3 on the London label, with Zubin Mehta conducting.

Honestly I sort of like it, and the sound, while not fantastic is fairly good. Have you heard that one?
 

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,273
Likes
9,794
Location
NYC
Kal, I just grabbed a Symphony 1 and 3 on the London label, with Zubin Mehta conducting.

Honestly I sort of like it, and the sound, while not fantastic is fairly good. Have you heard that one?
Not in many years. There are so many wonderful recordings, one cannot say that Mahler is underserved. However, when it comes to "audiophile," it has got to be multichannel to qualify for me.
 

mSpot

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2018
Messages
404
Likes
519
These surveys of Mahler symphony cycles by David Hurwitz are more about performance rather than sound. Not quite what you're looking for, but worth checking out for some perspective. Something that he emphasizes is that every set has hits and misses, and there is sometimes another, better recording by the same performers but separate from the set. For this and other reasons, personally I focus on individual recordings rather than sets.

Markus Stenz was mentioned earlier. Hurwitz's commentary about him (at 9:40) is... entertaining

 

beagleman

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
1,159
Likes
1,582
Location
Pittsburgh Pa
I used a telarc disc for the Saint Saens symphony #3. I believe it was recorded in 79 or 80, so not the same performance.
I am a bit confused now.

I have now heard the Telarc version of this, and it being an original Digital recording, it had hardly any noise, other than the typical "Room noise and players moving stuff" that all have.

Is THIS the recording you mentioned that had a lot of noise, or are we talking about different things??

Many of my older Classical titles, from the late 50s-80s (in analogue obviously) have already been "Digitally remastered" and mention having used some various types of noise reduction devices.
 
Top Bottom