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Classical Instruments: Historical or Modern?

posvibes

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I haven't thought about this in ages, but when I was about 14 I spent a day on school "work experience" program with a harpsichord builder. One of very few at the time who worked to original plans and then was working on a harpsichord for a harpsichordist in France. It was painstaking work and undertaken with not only great love but a simultaneous developing of and discovery of academic knowledge in the field.

There were quite a few jokes made at the expense of the piano forte in the course of the day, none of which in my totally ignorant way did I find amusing but took for trenchant criticism of that particular development in the history of music, although it was evidently good for business as harpsichord artisans were obviously rare as hen's teeth. The piano and hence its players and proponents belonged to a class of ham fisted neanderthals pounding away like sledgehammers upon a primitive instrument. Unlike the needed finesse of the plucked strings needed for the harpsichordist.

There was much chortling, much.

Live in that little intimate room where a near finished exemplar was being fine tuned before being shipped the richness of that instrument was quite something, quite something indeed, and I am yet to hear a recording that comes anywhere close to that sound. In that kind of intimate setting it had to my ears at the time a real range, whereas in many recordings I can't help think that despite the finesse it often sounds like a smacked banjo.
 

dualazmak

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.... Unlike the needed finesse of the plucked strings needed for the harpsichordist.

There was much chortling, much.

I fully agree with you and feel the same; let me share with you and all the people here my favorite two examples;

 

PatF

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Harpsichord is superior to a modern piano to play Harpsichord pieces :) Sometimes I wish I had one for certain pieces. Back or Rameau for instance. There are pieces that can sound quite good or even better with a modern piano, but that's because we play them in a different fashion. A very nice example is Scarlatti sonata L. 33 / K 87, which really seems composed for piano, just to sustain notes, rather than the harpsichord. Some other of his sonatas also shine with a modern piano. Perhaps this is due to the fact that he was very focused on harmony and counterpoint, rather than on a precise "sound". On the opposite side, Bach's Brandenburg concertos for instance are unplayable with a modern piano.
I have read today an article when making short research about Cristofori pianos and actually Domenico Scarlatti had in his disposition early pianoforte and around 100 of his sonatas most probably was written with Cristofori "arpicembalo col piano e forte" ;) in mind. What is really interesting is that Cristofori's piano action was not far from modern one.
 
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PatF

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I haven't thought about this in ages, but when I was about 14 I spent a day on school "work experience" program with a harpsichord builder. One of very few at the time who worked to original plans and then was working on a harpsichord for a harpsichordist in France. It was painstaking work and undertaken with not only great love but a simultaneous developing of and discovery of academic knowledge in the field.

There were quite a few jokes made at the expense of the piano forte in the course of the day, none of which in my totally ignorant way did I find amusing but took for trenchant criticism of that particular development in the history of music, although it was evidently good for business as harpsichord artisans were obviously rare as hen's teeth. The piano and hence its players and proponents belonged to a class of ham fisted neanderthals pounding away like sledgehammers upon a primitive instrument. Unlike the needed finesse of the plucked strings needed for the harpsichordist.

There was much chortling, much.

Live in that little intimate room where a near finished exemplar was being fine tuned before being shipped the richness of that instrument was quite something, quite something indeed, and I am yet to hear a recording that comes anywhere close to that sound. In that kind of intimate setting it had to my ears at the time a real range, whereas in many recordings I can't help think that despite the finesse it often sounds like a smacked banjo.
You need to check this recoding - Frederic Haas on exceptionally well preserved Hemsh harpsichord:

 

MickeyBoy

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Harpsichord is superior to a modern piano to play Harpsichord pieces :) Sometimes I wish I had one for certain pieces. Back or Rameau for instance. There are pieces that can sound quite good or even better with a modern piano, but that's because we play them in a different fashion. A very nice example is Scarlatti sonata L. 33 / K 87, which really seems composed for piano, just to sustain notes, rather than the harpsichord. Some other of his sonatas also shine with a modern piano. Perhaps this is due to the fact that he was very focused on harmony and counterpoint, rather than on a precise "sound". On the opposite side, Bach's Brandenburg concertos for instance are unplayable with a modern piano.

Why limit our selves to harpsichord vs piano? How about harpsichord vs organ or positif? Touch is completely different. on each. Harpsichords, clavichords, and fortepianos are way too variable. What about Steinway vs Bechstein vs Bosendorer vs Fazioli - now there is some substance for thought & for some great debates and suggestions for comparative listening.
 

PatF

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What about Steinway vs Bechstein vs Bosendorer vs Fazioli - now there is some substance for thought & for some great debates and suggestions for comparative listening.
Do you know this recording ?

Zrzut ekranu 2022-09-1 o 01.00.22.png


 

SMc

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A very nice example is Scarlatti sonata L. 33 / K 87, which really seems composed for piano, just to sustain notes, rather than the harpsichord. Some other of his sonatas also shine with a modern piano. Perhaps this is due to the fact that he was very focused on harmony and counterpoint, rather than on a precise "sound".
And also because he had pianos to perform on!
 

posvibes

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people here my favorite two examples;
The Rondeau is very, very good as it exhibits some of those deeper darker notes which are remarkable. The reverb of the performance area that is vital for an audience to hear and to amplify the sound of the harpsichord itself adds something that was not there when I heard the harpsichord in that small room, which was part of a Victorian era cottage, bare boards, curtained windows a rug here or there, connecting doors open etc. You couldn't be more than four or five feet from the instrument anywhere in the room. It was wonderful.

Thanks for the link though and throughout for some names, performers and performances to conjure with, I'm always ready to learn.
 

xaviescacs

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I have read today an article when making short research about Cristofori pianos and actually Domenico Scarlatti had in his disposition early pianoforte and around 100 of his sonatas most probably was written with Cristofori "arpicembalo col piano e forte" ;) in mind. What is really interesting is that Cristofori's piano action was not far from modern one.
:) That explains everything. This piece sounds dead with a harpsichord!
 

xaviescacs

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So,,, what would be your preference, impression and thoughts on the typical two piano performances of Couperin and Bach which I briefly discussed in my post #84? Let me paste them again here;
I especially like 19:59 Track-10 "La Misterieuse" (highly recommend to buy the CD for amazing recording quality);

We discussed this amazing performance and recording engineering here and thereafter on that remote thread.
Thanks for the invitation to think about this. :)
:)


I've listened to both pieces, and then tried some harpsichord versions.

Bach

Let’s start with the Bach one.

I found this Harpsichord performance which I’ll use as a reference for comparison.


He plays the first movement, in my view, with a lack of respect for its content, just as if it were a sort of game or divertimento, completely replacing the original nature of the music by a new one, it’s a bit offensive to me. Sounds like one of those pieces that Mozart plays in Amadeus. When I listen to this I think, "hey, if you don't like it, don't play it, but please, don't play around with it." And this is achieved by removing the rules of the music, the original hidden forces that constitute its value, this thin but strict equilibrium of rhythm, silence and counterpoint. The harpsichord performance is hugely transcendental, it conveys a feeling of fate as if time is something that smashes us, rather than something that we can blend, while the piano one is a strange mixture of classical leisure music and pseudo-romantic easy music, which is immaterial and quite boring in my opinion.

When I hear the beginning of the Harpsichord version, I feel the need to sit down and listen actively to what this man is telling me. It’s captivating and raises a lot of questions in my head. The piano version is just a bunch of cliches about what is beautiful one after the other and to me is no more than elevator music, something easy and banal that doesn't deserve my attention.

The difference is even more accentuated in the second movement, the andante, which in the Harpsichord is superb and fascinating, full of magnetism and mystery, transcendental. The piano version is like a light version of some Schumann youth piece. The two voices are not distinguished or contrasted but blended together, which completely removes the original quality of the piece. It’s just a bad joke in my opinion, a complete and nonsense transfiguration of the original music.

How much of this is attributable to the performer? Well, one can try to play the piano in a more dry manner, so to speak, but then one also end up with something that’s neither a harpsichord nor what the major public expects from a modern piano, so one can’t blame the performer for not trying this approach of “diminishing” the piano, so to speak. Gould more or less tries this with reasonable success, portraying effectively part of the spirit of the music. Nevertheless, I don’t think there are “good” performances of Bach on the piano, because this music isn’t for piano, as simple as that. You can have a lot of imagination and make nice music out of a Bach score with a piano, but it’s no longer baroque music, and that’s what the piece by Schiff conveys, it’s not a baroque piece, it’s something else, quite boring in my opinion.

Couperin

I’ve found this Harpsichord performance of the first song or movement.


To me it’s hard to listen to the whole piano set without having some rest. It’s too dense, partly because the use of the sustain, which with counterpoint music should be an anathema. Counterpoint assumes that notes don’t last more than written, having the sustain always half pressed all the time completely removes the silence from the music, as in the Bach one, all its air and literally suffocates it and its listeners. This music needs air, it’s built on the contrast with silence, this continuous sound which is almost a colored reverb is quite annoying in my opinion. The density of the ornaments doesn't help neither. In my opinion, they should be way much lighter and less pretentious.

The Harpsichord version of the first movement of the piece speak for itself, there is nothing more I can add to describe it in contrast to the piano one. The arpeggios, the ornaments, the silence and the tempi, the clarity, I don’t know, it’s a different music.

The same I said with respect to the Bach performance more or less applies here: the music is simply destroyed and built again with new aesthetic rules. One can like or dislike it, but, again, this is not baroque music nor Couperin, it’s something different based on the same notes, like what in modern music is called a version.

Summary

The piano performances of those pieces and many other baroque pieces are attempts to build a transcendental piece of art by means a romantic code but using music from way before, and that simply doesn’t work, is too artificial. It’s an attempt to make them sound as we, the average human, expect them to sound. To me, those attempts are sterile and what’s worse, they hide from people the true greatness of this music. People trust this guys and left the performance delighted, but I guess and hope there is in most of them a spark of doubt, the feeling that something is wrong, because it’s impossible to hide the real nature of this music, no matter how many layers of rubato, dynamics, pedal and subjectivism you put on top of it.

With the obvious differences, It reminds me when many directors don't take seriously those popular music passages of Mahler, like the 2nd movement of the 2nd symphony, displaying his ignorance by trying to convince us that they know what it's really in that music and what it means and what parts need to be accentuated in order to convey the true message it contains, completely omitting the music itself, the markings, the tempi, everything. It's like, "hey, I know what the mystery of this music is, I can decode it for you."

Of course all interpretations are legit and worth paying attention. And some or many people will prefer the piano ones over the harpsichord ones. In my view they are missing something and somehow losing their time, and I don’t think it’s just a matter of opinion, I believe it can be explained why one is better than the other, if our measure is to convey what the composer wanted to convey. My arguments may well be wrong, but I think this “rationalist” approach is valid.

I’ve tried to be clear and sincere because when I ask something to someone I expect him to tell me what he thinks.

This is in summary, with my limited English and time, my opinion.

I don't know if I’ll receive all sorts of criticism, including the classic "it's you that don’t understand those pieces", namely, stating that the author is an ignorant, which is always valid, on both sides. Well, I really don’t care as long as we talk about music. There is something that can't be changed though, no matter how bad or good my arguments may be, and it's the fact that I prefer the Harpsichord versions of all this baroque pieces, by far.

Again, thanks for asking.
 

dualazmak

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Hello @xaviescacs,

I thank you indeed for your really intensive insights, thoughts and listening to these piano and harpsichord performances of wonderful works of Couperin and Bach; I am deeply impressed by your detailed descriptions which you shared with us.

At least myself, I am not so strict as you are in "analyzing" performances and historic background of the music and performances. For me (as an naive classical and early music enthusiast), both of the piano and harpsichord performances are just really enjoyable, if I feel comfortable and agree with the approaches and understandings of the playing artists as well as with the recording quality in audio listening with my audio setup and room acoustics.

I feel really fortunate that I am living in the era where I can enjoy these wonderful performances with historical/period instruments (in this case harpsichord) and also modern piano both in digitally recorded formats for easily repeated listening; I can also occasionally attend the live concerts (piano or harpsichord) of these talented artists; wonderful music experiences.

For my profound fascinations to excellent harpsichord performances, you would please also refer to my post #122 above.

In any way, I fully agree with your point of "it’s a different music", and the amazing music works written by Couperin and Bach, and by other great composers, are still vividly alive even now as "world music heritage" to be played by period and modern instruments, in my humble opinion.

Thank you again, and let's enjoy wonderful music...

(For me too, English is not my mother language, and Japanese is much far away from English compared to Spanish. I always a little bit struggle about how I can describe my thoughts properly in English.)
 
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dasdoing

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this could also be of intrest:
recordings from the beginning of the 20th century are compared to modern ones. it's a whole diferent world if you ask me. classical music was much more alive, more "pop". modern interpretations are very heavy and strict. I would love to hear modern recordings of classical pieces played in this lighter, more free, more artistic style. imo classical music would be more popular if it would still be played like that.
 

dasdoing

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I also prefer the sound of the fortepiano instead of modern piano. It is not as loud/powerfull, but the notes are much cleaner. you hear much more of the strings, while on modern piano you basicly hear the soundboard.
 

dualazmak

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recordings from the beginning of the 20th century are compared to modern ones. it's a whole diferent world if you ask me. classical music was much more alive, more "pop". modern interpretations are very heavy and strict
Interesting, and I essentially (and partly?) agree with you. Let me share one favorable example, at least for me, for your point.

As shared in my post here on the remote thread, after all, I always return to this Jacques Thibaud's performance of Vitali's Channone (recorded in 1936), even though I have so many modern recordings in excellent sound quality.

Jacques Thibaud plays Vitali Chaconne (arr.Charlier), 1936​


TOCE-7826 EMI Angel
WS003723.JPG


I have been always thinking about why I am so much fascinated by Jacques Thibaud's performance and recording; I assume your point would be one of the important objective explanations for my preference.

And, my increasing fascinations on French baroque music which I recently started to share on my remote thread entitled "Lute Music and Other Early Music: Stunning Recordings We Love" could be partly supported and explained by your point.
 
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PatF

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Thanks for the invitation to think about this. :)
:)


I've listened to both pieces, and then tried some harpsichord versions.

Bach

Let’s start with the Bach one.

I found this Harpsichord performance which I’ll use as a reference for comparison.


He plays the first movement, in my view, with a lack of respect for its content, just as if it were a sort of game or divertimento, completely replacing the original nature of the music by a new one, it’s a bit offensive to me. Sounds like one of those pieces that Mozart plays in Amadeus. When I listen to this I think, "hey, if you don't like it, don't play it, but please, don't play around with it." And this is achieved by removing the rules of the music, the original hidden forces that constitute its value, this thin but strict equilibrium of rhythm, silence and counterpoint. The harpsichord performance is hugely transcendental, it conveys a feeling of fate as if time is something that smashes us, rather than something that we can blend, while the piano one is a strange mixture of classical leisure music and pseudo-romantic easy music, which is immaterial and quite boring in my opinion.

When I hear the beginning of the Harpsichord version, I feel the need to sit down and listen actively to what this man is telling me. It’s captivating and raises a lot of questions in my head. The piano version is just a bunch of cliches about what is beautiful one after the other and to me is no more than elevator music, something easy and banal that doesn't deserve my attention.

The difference is even more accentuated in the second movement, the andante, which in the Harpsichord is superb and fascinating, full of magnetism and mystery, transcendental. The piano version is like a light version of some Schumann youth piece. The two voices are not distinguished or contrasted but blended together, which completely removes the original quality of the piece. It’s just a bad joke in my opinion, a complete and nonsense transfiguration of the original music.

How much of this is attributable to the performer? Well, one can try to play the piano in a more dry manner, so to speak, but then one also end up with something that’s neither a harpsichord nor what the major public expects from a modern piano, so one can’t blame the performer for not trying this approach of “diminishing” the piano, so to speak. Gould more or less tries this with reasonable success, portraying effectively part of the spirit of the music. Nevertheless, I don’t think there are “good” performances of Bach on the piano, because this music isn’t for piano, as simple as that. You can have a lot of imagination and make nice music out of a Bach score with a piano, but it’s no longer baroque music, and that’s what the piece by Schiff conveys, it’s not a baroque piece, it’s something else, quite boring in my opinion.

Couperin

I’ve found this Harpsichord performance of the first song or movement.


To me it’s hard to listen to the whole piano set without having some rest. It’s too dense, partly because the use of the sustain, which with counterpoint music should be an anathema. Counterpoint assumes that notes don’t last more than written, having the sustain always half pressed all the time completely removes the silence from the music, as in the Bach one, all its air and literally suffocates it and its listeners. This music needs air, it’s built on the contrast with silence, this continuous sound which is almost a colored reverb is quite annoying in my opinion. The density of the ornaments doesn't help neither. In my opinion, they should be way much lighter and less pretentious.

The Harpsichord version of the first movement of the piece speak for itself, there is nothing more I can add to describe it in contrast to the piano one. The arpeggios, the ornaments, the silence and the tempi, the clarity, I don’t know, it’s a different music.

The same I said with respect to the Bach performance more or less applies here: the music is simply destroyed and built again with new aesthetic rules. One can like or dislike it, but, again, this is not baroque music nor Couperin, it’s something different based on the same notes, like what in modern music is called a version.

Summary

The piano performances of those pieces and many other baroque pieces are attempts to build a transcendental piece of art by means a romantic code but using music from way before, and that simply doesn’t work, is too artificial. It’s an attempt to make them sound as we, the average human, expect them to sound. To me, those attempts are sterile and what’s worse, they hide from people the true greatness of this music. People trust this guys and left the performance delighted, but I guess and hope there is in most of them a spark of doubt, the feeling that something is wrong, because it’s impossible to hide the real nature of this music, no matter how many layers of rubato, dynamics, pedal and subjectivism you put on top of it.

With the obvious differences, It reminds me when many directors don't take seriously those popular music passages of Mahler, like the 2nd movement of the 2nd symphony, displaying his ignorance by trying to convince us that they know what it's really in that music and what it means and what parts need to be accentuated in order to convey the true message it contains, completely omitting the music itself, the markings, the tempi, everything. It's like, "hey, I know what the mystery of this music is, I can decode it for you."

Of course all interpretations are legit and worth paying attention. And some or many people will prefer the piano ones over the harpsichord ones. In my view they are missing something and somehow losing their time, and I don’t think it’s just a matter of opinion, I believe it can be explained why one is better than the other, if our measure is to convey what the composer wanted to convey. My arguments may well be wrong, but I think this “rationalist” approach is valid.

I’ve tried to be clear and sincere because when I ask something to someone I expect him to tell me what he thinks.

This is in summary, with my limited English and time, my opinion.

I don't know if I’ll receive all sorts of criticism, including the classic "it's you that don’t understand those pieces", namely, stating that the author is an ignorant, which is always valid, on both sides. Well, I really don’t care as long as we talk about music. There is something that can't be changed though, no matter how bad or good my arguments may be, and it's the fact that I prefer the Harpsichord versions of all this baroque pieces, by far.

Again, thanks for asking.
uh oh :) a lot to read but it is very interesting. Thank you for being brave and sincere. I really appreciate it. I do not have so much time to do even what you have done so I will touch only few things.

First I will tell you why I am not so eager to do what @dualazmak asked for. As a musicologist, firstly I would have to analyze composition in terms what is crucial from formal standpoint, then judge performances according to how well musicians execute formal side of composition and which instrument is better suited for it. Next step is to add my subjective view etc. So I need for it at least 3-4 days. Especially for Italian concerto because I have never been fan of it and do not have any obvious preferences or never spent enough time listening to this work.

Xaviescacs:
"To me it’s hard to listen to the whole piano set without having some rest. It’s too dense, partly because the use of the sustain, which with counterpoint music should be an anathema. Counterpoint assumes that notes don’t last more than written, having the sustain always half pressed all the time completely removes the silence from the music, as in the Bach one, all its air and literally suffocates it and its listeners. This music needs air, it’s built on the contrast with silence, this continuous sound which is almost a colored reverb is quite annoying in my opinion. The density of the ornaments doesn't help neither. In my opinion, they should be way much lighter and less pretentious." (sorry I do not know how to quote it properly)

Yes, this is one of problems with playing on piano music written especially for harpsichord. Counterpoint in such pieces is quite dense and if notes are sustained too much they collide with "harmony". Another many times neglected thing (but in fact very important) is that no one is playing on piano tuned in historic temperament so we are stripped every time from nuances of early music tonality.

Xaviescacs I am treating your whole post as personal experience, sometimes strong one :) but I filter it (I am always steering away form statement like "nature of music" or "this was composer intention" [there are some instances when we can be sure of it but they are quite rare]). Anyway what I like is that you are really listening to music with passion, intensity and also with reflection. Thank you one more time for sharing your view.

Generally I prefer performances on instruments which were used in time when music was written but I like very much inteligent performances on modern instruments. One example is Glenn Gould - some of his creations are so well thought through ...

 

PatF

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If anyone is interested in historic temperament here is good video about it:

 

PatF

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Some organ piece in meantone temperament:

 

dualazmak

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Gould more or less tries this with reasonable success, portraying effectively part of the spirit of the music.
Generally I prefer performances on instruments which were used in time when music was written but I like very much inteligent performances on modern instruments. One example is Glenn Gould - some of his creations are so well thought through ...
It is my great interests (and pleasure) that both of you two mentioned about the performances of Glenn Gould since I have almost all of CDs and LPs of his recordings (all in my digital library now) as well as many books on his life and music. I once visited and laid red roses on his grave at Mount Pleasant Cemetery in northern Toronto, Canada.

As for piano performance of Bach's French Suites, Gould has been occupying my top preference position all the way, but now I also love the recent amazing performance by Andras Schiff at the BachFest in Leipzig in 2010 for which we have discussed a lot.
 

PatF

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It is my great interests (and pleasure) that both of you two mentioned about the performances of Glenn Gould since I have almost all of CDs and LPs of his recordings (all in my digital library now) as well as many books on his life and music. I once visited and laid red roses on his grave at Mount Pleasant Cemetery in northern Toronto, Canada.

As for piano performance of Bach's French Suites, Gould has been occupying my top preference position all the way, but now I also love the recent amazing performance by Andras Schiff at the BachFest in Leipzig in 2010 for which we have discussed a lot.
From historic perspective many of Gould performances are hard to justify but what he is doing is so logical as entity and well balanced that I treat is as one of the most convincing interpretation of Bach pieces on piano. Moreover I really enjoy it.
 
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