Classical Instruments: Historical or Modern?

[Robin L]

I remember reading Christopher Hogwood remarking (early 1990's, Grammophon Magazine) "Early Music used to have a lot of people who eat brown rice and go around in open toed sandals, but you see less of that now", or words to that effect. My experience recording a lot of early music folk is that that're mostly just folk who are focused on their music. They run a little to the Hippie side of the spectrum, but musicians tend to anyway. They usually aren't as monied as opera folk but tend to be among the better educated.

 

[charleski]

I found an old Guardian article that's quite interesting. The Mengelburg performance from 1939 that he refers to can be found here. And OMG yes, it does indeed sound very, very wrong to ears that are attuned to modern period performance norms. Worth a listen just to see how radically things have changed.

 

[anmpr1]

You are talking about some strange procedures base on faulty methodology. There are tools to analyze music but not in that way and you are right that in way you describe, it is pointless.

Of course it is faulty. That is my point. I was making a joke about it. Using Ranada as the butt. [Sorry about that, Dave. A lot of the stuff you've written about has been really helpful for audiophiles, in general.] Didn't mean to be so unobvious.

You can't 'objectively' measure quality, from an aesthetic standpoint, quantitatively or numerically.

On the other hand, there are instances where counting is important. In forensic research. If you are investigating whether an unknown composition was actually from a given composer, an analysis of the composer's known output, what and how he normally uses by way of composition, can be done in order to determine a 'likelihood' that the composition is authentic. This, in addition to an analysis of the actual paper and ink, etc.

My guess is that this sort of thing is probably more prevalent within literary investigations, where researcher's often measure word/phrase frequencies (among other things) in order to determine authenticity.

 

[dualazmak]

I am following and reading this thread with great interests.
Let me share with you my frank and naive preference and attitude on the topic with one very exceptional/extreme example.

As I wrote in my post here, many famous piano teachers and professors say "You should never play Fraincsois Couperin's Clavecin (Cembalo, Harpsichord) pieces with our modern piano!", but,,,

Iddo Bar-Shai plays Couperin so nicely; released in only CD format, but really wonderful recording and performance;
I especially like 19:59 Track-10 "La Misterieuse" (highly recommend to buy the CD for amazing recording quality);

The same story for Andras Schiff's amazing piano performance of Bach's French Suites and Italian Concerto at Leipzig BachFest in 2010 for which we discussed (we are still discussing) here and thereafter.

(Of course, I know many wonderful performances of these pieces played with period or modern Cembalo/Harpsichord.)

Even though Couperin and Bach have never thought and imagined about these understandings and performances of their music with modern concert-grand pianos, now we can enjoy and deeply impressed by these amazing modern piano performances with profound (modern) understandings/sympathies for the composers with amazing recording quality; and the "music" is still unquestionable "world music heritage" of the composers (and pianists); I am (we are) most happy living now to listen to the performances and to be greatly impressed.

Please note that I also love many of the historical/period instruments and "period" vocal methods as I started the thread entitled "Lute Music and Other Early Music: Stunning Recordings We Love"; your visit and participation will be much welcome. (I know some of you on board this thread have already participated on that thread.)

 

[anmpr1]

But on the topic of Ralph Vaughan Williams, I do not need to again hear his Tuba Concerto on the ancient-design tiny Barlow F tuba that was used at the premiere.

I could be funny, or perhaps unkind, and say that I do not need to ever again hear his Tuba thing. I think there is a point where you have to say that just because you can compose something, doesn't mean you should actually do it. But I know my view is not a shared view.

However all this has got me wondering. For those who have the opportunity to actually play old instruments, do you play differently than when using modern instruments? Do you have a different emotional 'feeling' toward the music? And does it show, in your playing?

I can't relate, because my instrument, the electric guitar, can't be said to be an old invention. And the ones people might consider 'old' (say, a late '50s Les Paul) I cannot afford, nor do I know anyone who owns one, or would let me play it if they did. However, with a modest collection of recent examples, I find I play differently depending upon whether it's an SG, LP, Schecter shredder, Ibanez AS... I 'feel' the music differently and want to play differently, with each.

 

[PatF]

Even though Couperin and Bach have never thought and imagined about these understandings and performances of their music with modern concert-grand pianos, now we can enjoy and deeply impressed by these amazing modern piano performances with profound (modern) understandings/sympathies for the composers with amazing recording quality; and the "music" is still unquestionable "world music heritage" of the composers (and pianists); I am (we are) most happy living now to listen to the performances and to be greatly impressed.

I fully agree. No one should ban performance because it is played on other instrument than specified. We can admire artistry regardless of historic context. From my side it is only one rule, be honest: if you label it authentic do not go for compromise and take shortcuts and if you do it call it historically inspired and explain you choices.

 

[PatF]

However all this has got me wondering. For those who have the opportunity to actually play old instruments, do you play differently than when using modern instruments? Do you have a different emotional 'feeling' toward the music? And does it show, in your playing?

First by we should assume here copies of period instruments. Playing original instruments it is something much different and belongs to different category and experience for many reasons. I can tell few thing from natural trumpet perspective.

I was trained on modern instrument then I learned how to play on natural trumpet. Playing such instruments is like nearly beginning from the scratch. Of course you are better prepared that someone who did not played at all but you also have to change your habits. First you need to adjust to much bigger mouthpiece and different resistance from instrument. Then you have to change you thinking about intonation because natural trumpet follows natural intonation (wide topic but what you get on natural trumpet is far from equal temperament). Then you should learn how to bend notes to be able to play in mean tone temperament also learn how to achieve sound outside of harmonic series.

Here is a chart with harmonic series on natural C trumpet:

Then there is much different way of articulation also different thinking about loudness. Generally, higher you go you need to play more softly and less loud (this generalization of course). You have master to perfection breathing and be very stable in the regard because it is the most reliable area, the rest is very demanding and prone to fail and to properly execute (hitting proper notes, being in tune etc.). During playing you need to be enormously focused and imagine sounds before you play it. (it is only few aspects roughly sketched)

Such approach change a lot in how you play and it will also affect playing on modern instrument. But I see only benefits in that. It enhances you sound and harmony perception also gives you much better basics and develop better habits.

 

[PatF]

To answer your question about emotional feeling. For me it was always more exciting and rewarding when I managed to play properly. I was also much more focused than when I played modern instrument. Modern instruments are more reliable, more straightforward. Playing on natural trumpet is forcing you to have different awareness of intonation and your surrounding like fellow trumpeters and kettledrum player because you are one organism.

 

[anmpr1]

For me it was always more exciting and rewarding when I managed to play properly.

I'm still working on that part. Not sure I'll ever get it right. Probably not.

 

[rdenney]

I could be funny, or perhaps unkind, and say that I do not need to ever again hear his Tuba thing. I think there is a point where you have to say that just because you can compose something, doesn't mean you should actually do it. But I know my view is not a shared view.

I tend to avoid tuba solo literature myself.

But the RVW is the best-known concerto for the instrument, so it's going to be played from time to time. I think it ought to be played really well. As big a fan of RVW as I am, my feelings about this work are that he included the humor (when it's played appropriately) but he didn't consider that brass music needs a heroic quality. The RVW Tuba Concerto could be played on bassoon and nobody would think it wrong.

There are other works from much less well-known composers that do capture the heroics--the concerto by Edward Gregson is a case in point. That piece fits the tuba well and would lose its power if played on, say, a bassoon.

Another work that captures what I mean by heroics is Strauss's Horn Concerto in Eb, which, if played on an Eb horn, will be a period instrument. It has the heroic quality that brass music needs--indeed it's the work that I mentioned previously that Dave Bragunier played on an antique Eb tuba to very musical effect.

Catelinet as the premiere performer did not make the case for the Vaughan Williams, it must be said. He was a wonderful musician, but it was happenstance that he was playing tuba at that point in his career--he was far better on piano. But John Fletcher made a much stronger case for the work, as did Roger Bobo and others since then (Michael Lind, Patrick Harrild, Hans Nickel, etc.) It doesn't help that Oxford Press changed the editing of the work in ways that are opposed to the plain markings in the manuscript. When Bobo requested a copy of the work from the composer before his death, RVW sent him a copy of the manuscript, not the printed, published version. Very different!

Rick "rambling" Denney

 

[mSpot]

Some commentary from David Hurwitz for discussion. He says the HIP movement has won and become today's mainstream performance practice, including at major established orchestras.

BTW, I haven't seen vibrato discussed. I've come to the opinion that vibrato is unnaturally suppressed by the HIP movement. I feel that musicians are naturally creative and expressive people who are open to using any technique at their disposal, and vibrato has probably been used continuously throughout history.

 

[PatF]

BTW, I haven't seen vibrato discussed. I've come to the opinion that vibrato is unnaturally suppressed by the HIP movement. I feel that musicians are naturally creative and expressive people who are open to using any technique at their disposal, and vibrato has probably been used continuously throughout history.

Vibrato was used in early music but as embellishment not part of sound like in modern violin playing and very often in opera. But now it is much different than it was when early music movement has started. Then it was fiercely criticized by HIP movement which was not as accurate as it should be and as it is now.

 

[Digby]

Vibrato was used in early music but as embellishment not part of sound like in modern violin playing.

Do we know this for certain, beyond any doubt?

 

[PatF]

Some commentary from David Hurwitz for discussion. He says the HIP movement has won and become today's mainstream performance practice, including at major established orchestras.

I need time to watch this but partly this words are true. There is not much true HIP ensembles and mainstream performers are using to many modern modification etc. On the other hand we have stil players which still doing research and recording very interesting pieces on correct instruments. Overall we have also much better awareness of historical performing styles which is very good. We will see what will be new trend is some years

 

[PatF]

Do we know this for certain, beyond any doubt?

yes. There is a lot of sources from 17th and 18th century which are precisely describing performance practice and vibrato.

 

[dualazmak]

and vibrato has probably been used continuously throughout history.

I assume it (vibrato or not) would highly dependent on history, genre, instruments and also true even in vocal music; I myself prefer less or no vibrato in Early Music, especially vocal music.

As I am not an academic authority of vocal ornamentation methods, let me share with you two typical examples.

If the singer(s) would add much vibrato in this case, it should destroy the true spirit of the music, I believe. My beloved track-2 "Congaudentes exultemus" can be heard at 2min 00sec in the YouTube clip;

I also wrote here about an exceptionally astonishing and unique early music (baroque) soprano singer Kumi ARATA. She graduated with the diploma in Vocal Music at Kunitachi College of Music, and she continued research and singing in the Graduate School of Tokyo University of the Arts getting the degree of Doctor (Music) for her thesis on ”A Study of Vocal Ornamentation in the 18th-Century France."

If you would listen to her amazing performance of "Lecsons de Tenebres Jeudi Saint" in the CSD-16 Misawa Classics, you may easily understand my point and preferences in these Early-to-Baroque vocal music.

Please simply PM me, if you and other people on board here would be seriously interested in Kumi ARATA's performances recorded by Misawa Classics and Aeolian Records.

 

[PatF]

With all respect to Hurwitz as a music lover and review he is similar story teller as Paul from PS audio. He many times tells half truths and doing big generalizations and he is biased, he always was as I remember . He very rarely shows any hard evidence and he likes to quote established conductors etc. like what they said is absolut truth. For sure he knows a lot about music performance at the turn of 20th century and later. At least one thing is pointed correctly we have a lot of so called HIP performances which sound close to modern performance today. Why ? Because many so called period orchestras do shortcuts (like copies of period instruments with modern modifications to make things easier - but it compromises sound) and modern orchestras took some period movements and often are using period like brass instruments.

 

[dualazmak]

This is a little bit out of the scope of the thread, but please allow me sharing my own naive considerations on the nature of "vibrato".

"Vibrato" is time-domain variable fluctuations consists of;

1. time-domain flexible/variable period of cycles
2. time-domain flexible/variable slight frequency fluctuations
3. time-domain flexible/variable slight sound-pressure fluctuations
4. mixture of above three with flexible/variable relative intensities

Is my above naive consideration right?
If so, I assume vibrato in violin is "2. frequency fluctuation" dominant, and vibrato in (modern) oboe is "3. sound-pressure fluctuation" dominant, right?
(And again, if so, I would like to ask Heinz Holliger for his "attitude", "policy", "method" and "technique" of vibrato in his modern oboe performances.)

In vibrato of your "sliding-pipe" wind instruments, you may rather easily and flexibly apply "4. mixture of above three", right?

In vocal music, a singer can also flexibly apply vibrato of "4. mixture of above three", I believe.

Even though I believe many of the authorities in music have already discussed and investigated the above, your frank follow-up or comments, as well as links to the related publications, will be appreciated.

 

[posvibes]

I am not particularly rigid on instrumentation one way or the other, but this recording of Jordi Saval's is one of my favourites played on period instruments of the time of Beethoven composing and performance of these symphonies. There is to my mind an authenticity to the sound and the sort of close recording of some of the instrumentation sounds like a small concert hall performance associated with the time.

The Tympani sounds are knockout.

 

[PatF]

I am not particularly rigid on instrumentation one way or the other, but this recording of Jordi Saval's is one of my favourites played on period instruments of the time of Beethoven composing and performance of these symphonies. There is to my mind an authenticity to the sound and the sort of close recording of some of the instrumentation sounds like a small concert hall performance associated with the time.

The Tympani sounds are knockout.

From my perspective I always wondered why Saval recorded this symphonies. It is not his area of expertise, h is much deeper in 16th/17th century music than late classicism. For me this recording is only decent and in my opinion there are much better. My best recording of Beethoven Symphonies on period instruments is: