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Classical Instruments: Historical or Modern?

PatF

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Then there isn't a general description of what the score conveys exactly. Some composers are very precise and others don't
It is dependent on epoch from which the score is as well as convention in that epoch, sometimes even in some circle.

I will give one example of score from 18th century where we have 3 sometimes 4 copies of the same piece but in different location. When composer (this particular but it was sometimes nor written rule) notated music for ensemble he led there wasn't any articulation written out but when he prepared score for other ensemble he notated articulation which was not obvious or he want precise. There is a lot of such examples. Generally very wide topic. So cookbook or recipe analogy is very in place. Score is a recipe for composition what we digest is a performance.
 
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MRC01

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I know I have been there and experienced it from orchestra pit and as listener....
Sure, I've heard the same thing. Classical music (I use that word loosely) has a high bar for recording/engineering quality compared to other genres. At least it avoids the worst excesses like heavy-handed dynamic compression and other processing. Yet it's not perfect nor consistent. Some recordings sound close to the real thing (whether a near or far perspective), most others not so much. The most common flaw seems to be a too-close and too-bright voicing of the instruments. This is really a nitpick as it's still quite good and you can hear everything in the music, just not a natural/lifelike sound.
 

xaviescacs

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It is dependent on epoch from which the score is as well as convention in that epoch, sometimes even in some circle.

I will give one example of score from 18th century where we have 3 sometimes 4 copies of the same piece but in different location. When composer (this particular but it was sometimes nor written rule) notated music for ensemble he led there wasn't any articulation written out but when he prepared score for other ensemble he notated articulation which was not obvious or he want precise. There is a lot of such examples. Generally very wide topic. So cookbook or recipe analogy is very in place. Score is a recipe for composition what we digest is a performance.
Well I was referring to the original manuscript, when available. Copies of course have some degree of variability. I play some Scarlatti sonatas of which there is no original but just different copies, all different from each other, so one only can guess composer indications or ornaments. Well, in that case there was probably no indication at all, and the copyist is in a way the first interpreter, writing down some dynamics and ornaments.

What I meant is that what needs to be written in the score in order to convey the music is a matter that depends on each composer, and of course varies a lot across periods. We usually tend to think that baroque or classical score have no indications because the composer was convinced there was only one way of playing the music but probably means that they expected every player to perform it differently, to create something each time. At that time, music was more important than scores or intellectual property. :)
 

PatF

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Well I was referring to the original manuscript, when available. Copies of course have some degree of variability. I play some Scarlatti sonatas of which there is no original but just different copies, all different from each other, so one only can guess composer indications or ornaments. Well, in that case there was probably no indication at all, and the copyist is in a way the first interpreter, writing down some dynamics and ornaments.
this were composer copies :)
 

Digby

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I, on the whole, tend to to agree with Itzhak Perlman when he called period instrument players "vegetarians". There are notable exceptions, but to be honest I'd rather hear Yehudi Menuhin or Ida Haendel play the Chaconne, than a period player with gut strings and an old style violin/bow. Maybe Menuhin and Haendel don't play in the "correct" style of Bach's time (as far as we can tell), but as far as I am concerned, it has the correct feeling, which for me is more important and what a fair amount of period instrument playing seems to lack.

I'm not interested in music as a purely academic exercise. Heart and soul first, minutiae later.
 

PatF

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What I meant is that what needs to be written in the score in order to convey the music is a matter that depends on each composer, and of course varies a lot across periods. We usually tend to think that baroque or classical score have no indications because the composer was convinced there was only one way of playing the music but probably means that they expected every player to perform it differently, to create something each time. At that time, music was more important than scores or intellectual property. :)

Generally I agree and it is all true but I am not convinced that everything was put in players hand (and there is evidence to prove it). There were conventions and composer expected his work to be played in such convention also as you said composer expected from performer to add proper embellishments etc. and there was far more improvising than we have today or how it was in 19th century to some extent.
 

PatF

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I, on the whole, tend to to agree with Itzhak Perlman when he called period instrument players "vegetarians". There are notable exceptions, but to be honest I'd rather hear Yehudi Menuhin or Ida Haendel play the Chaconne, than a period player with guts strings and an old style violin/bow. Maybe Menuhin and Haendel don't play in the "correct" style of Bach's time (as far as we can tell), but as far as I am concerned, it has the correct feeling, which for me is more important and what a fair amount of period instrument playing seems to lack.

I'm not interested in music as a purely academic exercise. Heart and soul first, minutiae later.
Correct feeling is the same as I hear cables .... so please do not go that way. Of course you can prefer Menuhin or Ida Handel but do not say their performances have correct feeling. And Perlman calling period instrument players "vegetarians" is simply rude and sign of insecurity. Period player could say about Perlman playing Handel or Bach "carnivore brute"
 

Digby

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Correct feeling is the same as I hear cables .... so please do not go that way.
I suppose it is a question of taste, interpretation always is. I'd rather have someone tell me something with the music than put too much stress on whether there is no vibrato or a particular violin/bow must be used. I think this can inhibit music making unnecessarily.

This is just my taste/view, you are free to your own. I've even heard Fritz Kreisler play a fantastic Bach with lots of portamento (why doesn't anyone use such portamento these days?), scandalously inaccurate I bet, but musically highly enjoyable.

There are great musicians who play period instruments that aren't hung up on such things, but their music might sound better yet on more recent equipment, who knows? Personally, I'm not a stickler for these things.
 

xaviescacs

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There were conventions and composer expected his work to be played in such convention also as you said composer expected from performer to add proper embellishments etc. and there was far more improvising than we have today or how it was in 19th century to some extent.
I completely agree, and it's curious because today we have such veneration for creation and intellectual property, that even knowing that, we tend to play it as written, adding not much of our own. I guess Bach or Rameau would be a bit disappointed by our general lack of creativity. :)
 
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Robin L

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Robin's rule for Historically Informed Performance Practice: The right note on the wrong instrument is always more right than the wrong note played on the right instrument.
 

xaviescacs

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this were composer copies :)
This is from the preface of the Henle Urtext edition I use. :)

IMG_20220825_183929945.jpg

IMG_20220825_183911489.jpg
 

rdenney

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We must always remember that the 'sound in mind' is in the mind. Often by necessity. Beethoven? A composer writing a symphony or opera score at his piano has little to do with the orchestra, at the time of his writing down the notes.

I like the idea that music is made by sounds and not notes. An 'objective measure' of a composition would be to count the notes, stopwatch the timing between the bars, possibly count the repetitions and frequency of the various notes, and count which were used more often. But that would have nothing to do with music.

Some listeners go this approach. I remember reading an analysis of some opera recordings by Dave Ranada. He made a spreadsheet of a half a dozen recordings, listing timings, etc. I was scratching my head. I was asking, "What is all that telling him? Why is he doing that?" Really, anyone can, within a few short bars, compare Toscanini to Furtwangler, and immediately (intuitively) discover who is conducting at what tempo, and (depending upon one's mood) determine which conductor has a better grasp of the 'notes on paper'.
Oh, yes, Toscanini vs. Furwangler--Opus Magazine (RIP) had a long series of articles and letters to the editor on the whole Beethoven Tempo Debate back in the late 80's or thereabouts. I do like Beethoven at the tempo Beethoven marked, and I do like the music punctuated by the sforzandos that Beethoven used, rather than the extended smooshiness (technical term) that Beethoven had become as interpreted by post-Wagnerian conductors (like Furtwangler). It just makes the music more lively and less heavy. I think it was in that debate that Norrington made his observation that we play stuff the way the composer marked it so that it would sound new again.

But some of those post-Wagnerian conductors could produce real magic, too. Cellibidache (rarely recorded), Fricsay--some real magic came from those batons from a range of composers.

A more interesting comparison to me is the way in which Adrian Boult and John Barbirolli conducted Vaughan Williams. Boult is careful and disciplined, and Boult is all over the map. (I have a 1958 recording of Barbirolli conducting the second symphony, compared to a 60's recording by Boult). Vaughan Williams thought of Boult as a good friend, but his term for the other was "Glorious John!" That tells me that composers are not necessarily that picky about the details. Vaughan Williams himself conducted (or directed the conductor to--I don't recall) his third symphony (Pastoral) a bit more quickly than he really wanted to at the premiere, because he though the audience would not tolerate three slow movements that were that slow. He became more committed to the slow tempi when others conducted it effectively as marked, as I recall the story.

But on the topic of Ralph Vaughan Williams, I do not need to again hear his Tuba Concerto on the ancient-design tiny Barlow F tuba that was used at the premiere. When John Fletcher, Roger Bobo, and other greats of the 60's and 70's recorded it, the music blossomed with lovely tone and musicality. The great Arnold Jacobs recorded it with Chicago in the late 60's, and purposely used a British orchestral F of the type used at the premiere, I think he did not get the effect he was certainly capable of.

Rick "the answer to the OP's question: it depends on what serves the music" Denney
 
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PatF

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. Vaughan Williams himself conducted (or directed the conductor to--I don't recall) his third symphony (Pastoral) a bit more quickly than he really wanted to at the premiere, because he though the audience would not tolerate three slow movements that were that slow. He became more committed to the slow tempi when others conducted it effectively as marked, as I recall the story.
This is something that many times was happening when we had at philharmonic concerts more contemporary music than “old”. 1st performances of new pieces were much different than later to give audience more understanding of the piece or for other reasons. I recommend great book abut this topic:

 
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MRC01

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Oh, yes, Toscanini vs. Furwangler--Opus Magazine (RIP) had a long series of articles and letters to the editor on the whole Beethoven Tempo Debate back in the late 80's or thereabouts. I do like Beethoven at the tempo Beethoven marked, and I do like the music punctuated by the sforzandos that Beethoven used, rather than the extended smooshiness (technical term) that Beethoven had become as interpreted by post-Wagnerian conductors (like Furtwangler). It just makes the music more lively and less heavy. ...
This reminds me of the Beethoven symphonies that Honeck directed with the Pittsburgh Symphony on Reference Recordings. Brisk tempos like Toscanini, with a different approach to dynamics and articulation. I found them refreshing and expressive to hear.
 

PatF

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But some of those post-Wagnerian conductors could produce real magic, too. Cellibidache (rarely recorded), Fricsay--some real magic came from those batons from a range of composers.
Very true.
 

shal

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Hi,
I am trumpeter too (it's one of my personnal instrument as avatar).

For comparison between old and modern instruments, there is a short video on youtube by two serious guys:


It's a comparison between natural trumpet and modern picollo trumpet.

Personnaly, I played also piccolo trumpet (but badly )
 

PatF

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Hi,
I am trumpeter too (it's one of my personnal instrument as avatar).

For comparison between old and modern instruments, there is a short video on youtube by two serious guys:


It's a comparison between natural trumpet and modern picollo trumpet.

Personnaly, I played also piccolo trumpet (but badly )
Sorry but where do you see natural trumpet ? They are playing on vented so called baroque trumpets invented in the 70. of previous century. So they are younger than piccolo trumpets.
 
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bluefuzz

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I have no problem with 'early' music being played on modern instruments with modern stylistic interpretations. However, I almost always prefer the same pieces played on period correct instruments with (as far as can be known) period technique/style. In fact I would probably prefer new music played on old instruments.

What I do find annoying is when 'classical' music snobs heap praise on say Karajan conducting The Berliner Philharmonic playing The Four Seasons or Brandeburg Concerto but then turn their nose up at ELP's version of Pictures at an Exhibition or Wendy Carlos' Switched On Bach. They are all equally 'wrong' with regard to the original intent and sound, and all equally valid as 'modern' interpretations.
 

PatF

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I have no problem with 'early' music being played on modern instruments with modern stylistic interpretations.
Same here I even praise intelligent young musicians who are playing on modern instrument music form other periods and manage to play with style. For example Victoria Mullova attempt (on historic set up) on Mendelssohn Violin Concerto is not great to say in polite tone but what Alina Ibragimova has done with this Concerto on modern violin is outstanding.


 
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AlephAlpha001

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I, on the whole, tend to to agree with Itzhak Perlman when he called period instrument players "vegetarians". There are notable exceptions, but to be honest I'd rather hear Yehudi Menuhin or Ida Haendel play the Chaconne, than a period player with gut strings and an old style violin/bow. Maybe Menuhin and Haendel don't play in the "correct" style of Bach's time (as far as we can tell), but as far as I am concerned, it has the correct feeling, which for me is more important and what a fair amount of period instrument playing seems to lack.

I'm not interested in music as a purely academic exercise. Heart and soul first, minutiae later.
What I *really* want to hear is a reanimated Mannheim Court Orchestra with J. Stamitz grinding out Bruch's Violin Concerto. As a nod to Tradition, he could lead from the violin :)

Just saying.

Hopping out of facetious mode, it's arguable that Bach is sufficiently transcendent and music-of-the-spheres-ish to be performable on just about anything. Personally I'd go with the Marimba, hehe. But one wouldn't necessarily say the same for his offspring, for example.
 
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