• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Classe Sigma AMP5 Multichannel Amplifier Review

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,406
The Sigma line was made in China, Classe had many quality issues with products that were sourced there. Some of the later Delta products under B&W ownership were also sourced there with similar results.
I don't know the set up of that company, but ANY company selling 'high end' products that are manufactured out of country for reasons of bottom line costs has to maintain strict QC, or they will drop market share. But it is a two edge sword.

For an example, look at Gibson. Toward the end of their last management cycle (pre-bankruptcy) the quality of their very expensive US made product was declining. There were horrible instances of poor workmanship. At the same time, their Epiphone Qingdao facility was producing highly consistent, good quality product at a lower to mid-level price point. The stuff coming from there as of last year is generally excellent from all I can personally tell, and from what I've read and seen. Management at that plant, BTW, is done in-house by Gibson.

Doing business in the US, in a place like New York state (McIntosh, Benchmark), has to be a huge expense. Labor laws, environmental laws, taxes, impact fees and all the rest. You don't have that same thing and to that extent in Malaysia, China, Vietnam and Mexico et al. But if a company is going to make high-end goods in those places, they had better have a big QC presence in order to make sure they are offering top tier products. People once burnt are not likely to buy the same next time. That is one reason McIntosh has been able to stay the course over 70 years. Say what you will about them, but no one ever says they are selling second hand build quality.
 

q3cpma

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2019
Messages
3,060
Likes
4,416
Location
France
Competition is what makes the science and technology advance. Yes there will always be a leader of the pack, in amplification now it's THX and Hypex/Unifi, at least in term of measurments, the thing is, your point is relevent. Factoring in the price. The day that we only have one or two brand that is considered advanced enough to build hi fidelity amplifiers, don't expect the pricing to be democratic, they will go trough the roof without competition, they will also rest on their laurels and that would be the end of it. Now, I'm all for measurments, but it should be pointed that in the end difference are not night and day, I'm quite certain Classé would not have released this if it was not pleasant to listen to. Difference between amps are small.
What I meant is that by having a $5k retail price, you imply that your product is better than the much less expensive competition. When it's clearly more pretending than reality, it deserves at best dismissal and at worst mockery.
 

Koeitje

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
2,292
Likes
3,880
Sure, ok, so any products that is not the absolute best in the world is not worth releasing? Any brand that comes second or third in their class of product "is a joke" and shouldn't even exist?
You are overreacting. A product doesn't have to be the best, it just has to be competitive with products in the same price range. This Classé amplifier is not competitive. I should cost about half the MRSP to be an interesting option. Asking $5K for this is basically a scam. It's like asking $1200 for RTX2080TI right now.
 

paddycrow

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 28, 2019
Messages
342
Likes
572
Location
Grand Haven, MI
I don't know the set up of that company, but ANY company selling 'high end' products that are manufactured out of country for reasons of bottom line costs has to maintain strict QC, or they will drop market share. But it is a two edge sword.

For an example, look at Gibson. Toward the end of their last management cycle (pre-bankruptcy) the quality of their very expensive US made product was declining. There were horrible instances of poor workmanship. At the same time, their Epiphone Qingdao facility was producing highly consistent, good quality product at a lower to mid-level price point. The stuff coming from there as of last year is generally excellent from all I can personally tell, and from what I've read and seen. Management at that plant, BTW, is done in-house by Gibson.

Doing business in the US, in a place like New York state (McIntosh, Benchmark), has to be a huge expense. Labor laws, environmental laws, taxes, impact fees and all the rest. You don't have that same thing and to that extent in Malaysia, China, Vietnam and Mexico et al. But if a company is going to make high-end goods in those places, they had better have a big QC presence in order to make sure they are offering top tier products. People once burnt are not likely to buy the same next time. That is one reason McIntosh has been able to stay the course over 70 years. Say what you will about them, but no one ever says they are selling second hand build quality.

As a retired engineer I'm quite familiar with off shoring and quality control.
 

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
What I meant is that by having a $5k retail price, you imply that your product is better than the much less expensive competition. When it's clearly more pretending than reality, it deserves at best dismissal and at worst mockery.
OK, but beside the M27 that is the same price, are you able to name 3 multichannel amps of 5 years ago that offers 450 watts per channel for much less money? I don't fully disagree with this, but which are they? OK, we knoe the Monoprice one, I don't think the Monolith thing existed around that time, who else?
Edit: Monolith is only 200 watts
 
Last edited:

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,406
As a retired engineer I'm quite familiar with off shoring and quality control.
But was Classe? Evidently not from what you posted. You should have offered them your expertise! :)

FWI, there is a Denon Pro and Marantz Pro owned by a company called InMusic. InMusic also owns Rane, Numark, and Alesis among others. It doesn't look like that outfit is associated with SU.
 

q3cpma

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2019
Messages
3,060
Likes
4,416
Location
France
OK, but beside the M27 that is the same price, are you able to name 3 multichannel amps of 5 years ago that offers 450 watts per channel for much less money? I don't fully disagree with this, but which are they? OK, we knoe the Monoprice one, I don't think the Monolith thing existed around that time, who else?
Edit: Monolith is only 200 watts
Wouldn't five ICEpower or Hypex monoblocs do just fine? As a bonus, you just have to replace one when it fails.
 

paddycrow

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 28, 2019
Messages
342
Likes
572
Location
Grand Haven, MI
My experience is in the auto industry as a mechanical engineer. I wouldn't have been a good fit.

What I know about Classe products comes from reading online customer reviews. The Sigma line has received many complaints.

I don't have first hand knowledge, but I suspect some decisions were driven by B&W and EVA Automation management.
 

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,404
Likes
5,296
Location
Somerville, MA
Really enjoy the reviews and garden pics. Makes me want to plant a garden.

Hell of a lot more satisfying than buying hifi gear. At least until the Winter.
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,406
What I know about Classe products comes from reading online customer reviews. The Sigma line has received many complaints.
That sort of thing will kill a brand. It takes a long time to recover, and sometimes they never do. Funny story, my previous car was a Mk7 GTI. World class IMO. Excellent fit and finish and drivability. But I'd run in to people (figuratively) who would tell me they'd never consider another Golf because of the 1977 diesel Rabbit they had, and that fell apart on them after a few years! LOL
 

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
Wouldn't five ICEpower or Hypex monoblocs do just fine? As a bonus, you just have to replace one when it fails.
Maybe, I did build a pair of NC500 Monoblock, and They costed me almost 1K each, but I'll admit that my lack of proper tools jacked up the price (had the back panel pierced by someone), and also having small quantity, good quality parts (good connectors and switches are expensive, along with chassis. In my case, I'm in the same price range but that's not counting my time. I see at appolon they go for 865 Euro so yes we are still above for 5 channel, and still need to have the space for 5 amps. The point I was trying to make is that yes, If it was priced twice as much as the competition, yes I guess we can dismiss the effort, But it's priced the same as the competition, outperformed by Hypex, in their price range. For a high end - Low volume brand like Classé to compete, It's already an achievement, with lower performance yes but still an amp main performance metric is it's output power, the rest being good enough for most people. Those are not bad specs, and ultrasonic noise is inaudible
 

q3cpma

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2019
Messages
3,060
Likes
4,416
Location
France
Maybe, I did build a pair of NC500 Monoblock, and They costed me almost 1K each, but I'll admit that my lack of proper tools jacked up the price (had the back panel pierced by someone), and also having small quantity, good quality parts (good connectors and switches are expensive, along with chassis. In my case, I'm in the same price range but that's not counting my time. I see at appolon they go for 865 Euro so yes we are still above for 5 channel, and still need to have the space for 5 amps. The point I was trying to make is that yes, If it was priced twice as much as the competition, yes I guess we can dismiss the effort, But it's priced the same as the competition, outperformed by Hypex, in their price range. For a high end - Low volume brand like Classé to compete, It's already an achievement, with lower performance yes but still an amp main performance metric is it's output power, the rest being good enough for most people. Those are not bad specs, and ultrasonic noise is inaudible
Mind you, it's not a ridiculous product, but comparing with ICEpower's ASP modules instead of Hypex's might be a bit more violent; especially if considering some 4 channels models. For example, I can find https://en.rougeaudiodesign.com/alauda-xs-2400 rated at 4x700W (4Ω), 4x600W (8Ω) for 1700€.
 

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
My experience is in the auto industry as a mechanical engineer. I wouldn't have been a good fit.

What I know about Classe products comes from reading online customer reviews. The Sigma line has received many complaints.

I don't have first hand knowledge, but I suspect some decisions were driven by B&W and EVA Automation management.
Yes, My experience with the audio industry out of 100 customers, 90 happy customers will not say anything and enjoy their purchase, 9 happy one will take the time to personally email to thank you, but the one unhappy one will go and rant online in public forums.
 

Koeitje

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
2,292
Likes
3,880
Maybe, I did build a pair of NC500 Monoblock, and They costed me almost 1K each, but I'll admit that my lack of proper tools jacked up the price (had the back panel pierced by someone), and also having small quantity, good quality parts (good connectors and switches are expensive, along with chassis. In my case, I'm in the same price range but that's not counting my time. I see at appolon they go for 865 Euro so yes we are still above for 5 channel, and still need to have the space for 5 amps. The point I was trying to make is that yes, If it was priced twice as much as the competition, yes I guess we can dismiss the effort, But it's priced the same as the competition, outperformed by Hypex, in their price range. For a high end - Low volume brand like Classé to compete, It's already an achievement, with lower performance yes but still an amp main performance metric is it's output power, the rest being good enough for most people. Those are not bad specs, and ultrasonic noise is inaudible
You paid way too much for those. NC400's go for €700 each and include everything you need to make them. Even outperforms the NC500 in terms of distortion. So that's €3500 for the easy DIY solution that is pretty overpriced compared to OEM pricing for NC500's. 5 channel NC500 should be around €2500.
 

Matias

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
5,031
Likes
10,804
Location
São Paulo, Brazil

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
You paid way too much for those. NC400's go for €700 each and include everything you need to make them. Even outperforms the NC500 in terms of distortion. So that's €3500 for the easy DIY solution that is pretty overpriced compared to OEM pricing for NC500's. 5 channel NC500 should be around €2500.
All that is hard to quantify, can we just focus on comparing apples to apples? DIY is a niche, we are entousiasth here, and like that suff, but we should compare to commercial, FCC and CE regulated products. I find that even boutique online only craftmans Amp builders are a bit of a stretch in term of comparison base. I'm just saying that it was hard to find a 5 channel 450 w amp 5 years ago, and the price thety go now in the used market is fair, as per amir conclusion
 

Matias

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
5,031
Likes
10,804
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
If I were in the market for a 5 channel amp today and had to choose between this Classé used and an NCore amp new for similar price, there is no doubt I would go with the latter. Market has changed.
 

q3cpma

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2019
Messages
3,060
Likes
4,416
Location
France
All that is hard to quantify, can we just focus on comparing apples to apples? DIY is a niche, we are entousiasth here, and like that suff, but we should compare to commercial, FCC and CE regulated products. I find that even boutique online only craftmans Amp builders are a bit of a stretch in term of comparison base. I'm just saying that it was hard to find a 5 channel 450 w amp 5 years ago, and the price thety go now in the used market is fair, as per amir conclusion
Well, if we go there, can't really compare the price of a used warranty-less amp and new one. Not saying that it's horrible, but the retail price makes it look bad. What could make it look a bit better is a weighted THD metric, as there's nothing after the 3rd.
That frequency response drop and SNR are still a shame, though.
 
Top Bottom