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CHORD M-Scaler Review (Upsampler)

Rate this product:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 358 88.2%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 13 3.2%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther

    Votes: 7 1.7%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 28 6.9%

  • Total voters
    406

mccririck

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Let's pause at step 1. Let's assume the M-Scaler does a perfect job in remediating the potential artifacts of a 24kHz brick wall filter. Again assume this brings the sound quality of the audible spectrum of a 48 kHz recording to that of an original 192khz recording.

Now, in general, how big is the difference in sound quality between a 48kHz and 192kHz recording (and I mean audible difference)? That difference is more than the theoretic maximum of what the M-Scaler can do for you (as it still doesn't restore the ultrasonic spectrum).

What if the latest study published by the AES showed most people can't even hear a difference between CD and high res. (hundreds of people involved in the test, with less than 2 able to hear a difference)? Than how much benefit can these people expect from an M-Scaler?

(Now sit back and wait for someone to argue the high res study failed because most people don't have a Chord DAC ;))
Do you have a link to this AES study and the test procedures and also the type of people that took part (were they used to listening for such differences in ideal conditions?)?
 

Dogcoop

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Do you have a link to this AES study and the test procedures and also the type of people that took part (were they used to listening for such differences in ideal conditions?)?
I think this may be what you’re looking for:


I look forward to your response after reading the report

cheers
 
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garbz

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19 pages of replies and no one noticed that for $5500 they put the wrong BNC connectors on the back? They are 50ohm connectors. The S/PDIF spec calls for 75ohm termination. I know it doesn't make a practical difference contributing at most a couple of ps to jitter, but for $5500 I expect at least the right connector to be used. :facepalm:
 

Blumlein 88

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19 pages of replies and no one noticed that for $5500 they put the wrong BNC connectors on the back? They are 50ohm connectors. The S/PDIF spec calls for 75ohm termination. I know it doesn't make a practical difference contributing at most a couple of ps to jitter, but for $5500 I expect at least the right connector to be used. :facepalm:
Good catch, and right you are. I'd assumed they wouldn't mess that up. But the insulation is a dead giveaway once you look. Good grief. Someone who posts on head-fi, ask Mr. Watts about this. I'd be real interested in his reply.

For those who may not know here is a photo of each.

proxy-image


M scaler BNC's.
index.php
 

testp

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Good catch, and right you are. I'd assumed they wouldn't mess that up. But the insulation is a dead giveaway once you look. Good grief. Someone who posts on head-fi, ask Mr. Watts about this. I'd be real interested in his reply.
i hope its not too mean, i probably could quess the answer: so it adds a little jitter, so what...

sincerely with a bit of humor,
testp
 
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curiousland

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i hope its not too mean, i probably could quess the answer: so it adds a little jitter, so what...
Long ago I found the BNC cables came with M scaler were 50 Ohm and emailed Chord for correction and a clarification from their management/designer. After long wait they then sent me another pair BNC cables -- still 50 Ohm! I then stopped using M scaler, partly due to not noticeable performance after spending $4K+ Euro.
 

Blumlein 88

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Long ago I found the BNC cables came with M scaler were 50 Ohm and emailed Chord for correction and a clarification from their management/designer. After long wait they then sent me another pair BNC cables -- still 50 Ohm! I then stopped using M scaler, partly due to not noticeable performance after spending $4K+ Euro.
Yet on head fi he twice suggested cables to people which are 75 ohm. ???
 

Jomungur

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I feel for the guy who let you borrow it. Such a shame.
I know, I'm weeping in shame. How can I face my kids when I tell them they can no longer afford to go to college because of that M Scaler...

Just kidding, of course. It's not a big deal. First World problems. Sure, it's annoying, but I've made worse bets and lost. And that's what a lot of high end audio devices are, they are bets. Most of them don't work. But some do. It's the price you pay if you want to be an early adopter, you should see all the e ink and RLCD monitors I have accumulated because that's a technology I am very interested in (monitors without backlight). A total indulgence, I know.

I cannot sell the M Scaler in good conscience (see below on transparency) so I will keep it. Maybe even use it; I mean it's a sunk cost now and I detected no degradation in sound from it (whatever the degradation of signal that Amir is referring to, I can't hear it, although as I mentioned above I can't say I notice a difference right now not having it).

I still don't have as hard a line against the M Scaler as many posting here. My own takeaways after thinking about Amir's review are more nuanced:

1- I'm disappointed in Chord's lack of transparency. They should not have marketed this device as something to use for non-Chord DACs. And it is marketed this way, look at the website. Rob Watts own comments clearly indicate he designed this specifically for the Chord DACs. I'm not blaming him personally for this decision; I know that there's a lots of decisions with these things and could easily see the hand of marketing/corporate to insist that the device.

2- It's clear the 16x is the intended mode. It feels like the 2x and 4x modes were just thrown in to accommodate other DACs. They should have been transparent about this. Again, the tone of Rob Watts' comments indicates he doesn't really feel these modes are important.

3- I've seen some people post here to the effect that they are not going to buy a Chord product against because of the M Scaler review. To me, that is as irrational thinking as what they accuse the people on the Headfi forums. You can make good products and have a dud. It doesn't take away from your other products, assuming they can stand by themselves as having good quality. I have Chord DACs, I like them. I like the Chord 2Go as well as a streaming device. Maybe Amir will eviscerate the Hugo 2 if he looks at it again and make me question my judgment but let's see.

4- I'm not going to conclude that Rob Watts is a fraud. How would I know? I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. People can believe their own dreams, you know, even when they're misguided. Especially when they put a lot of time into them. Even the smartest of us can fall for the simple fallacy that all progress scales linearly (40,000 taps good; 1,000,000 taps must be amazing!). However, here I believe Amir is right, blind testing can provide a useful correction for the maverick inventors who often do spark innovation. It's an easy thing to implement as part of a product development phase, yet for some reason people resist it.

5- I'm also staying open to the possibility of impacts of ultrasonic frequencies that might be affected by things like hi-res audio and upscaling. I'm not saying that humans can hear ultrasonic frequencies. But there is growing evidence that ultrasonic frequencies can impact how we feel. No nothing is established yet in terms of audio. But there's enough studies out there that it's not a preposterous notion, people who are exposed to constant levels of ultrasonic noise reporting fatigue, sickness, etc. One of the things in audio that people notice is listening fatigue. It's not clear what causes it. It's also not something you can easily blind test, because it takes effect after, say, 30-45 minutes of listening to music. When people say they prefer the M Scaler 16x sound (I can't say I'm one of them), perhaps they are referring to something like this, the music is less fatiguing. I don't think this is testable at all at the moment. Still, I don't want to just dismiss it for that reason; I'm not a logical positivist!

6- After all that though, I would ask someone who wants to buy an M Scaler why they just shouldn't start with the HQ Player first and see if it makes any difference at all. And go from there.

7- I saw that Amir posted two sound files, one sampled at bypass and the other at 2x. Is that a fair thing to do? I mean does it accurately capture the signal coming out to the M Scaler (I don't have the technical wherewithal to know). If so, I have to wonder why Chord just doesn't do this on their own website. Let people download an upsampled sound file after the M Scaler processes it at 16x, and then the original sample, and let people decide. If it's as good as Chord thinks it is, then it should sell itself.
 
Last edited:

testp

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I cannot sell the M Scaler in good conscience (see below on transparency) so I will keep it. Maybe even use it; I mean it's a sunk cost now and I detected no degradation in sound from it (whatever the degradation of signal that Amir is referring to, I can't hear it, although as I mentioned above I can't say I notice a difference right now not having it).
you should sell it, chord diehards don't believe in asr, win-win
 

Blumlein 88

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I know, I'm weeping in shame. How can I face my kids when I tell them they can no longer afford to go to college because of that M Scaler...

Just kidding, of course. It's not a big deal. First World problems. Sure, it's annoying, but I've made worse bets and lost. And that's what a lot of high end audio devices are, they are bets. Most of them don't work. But some do. It's the price you pay if you want to be an early adopter, you should see all the e ink and RLCD monitors I have accumulated because that's a technology I am very interested in (monitors without backlight). A total indulgence, I know.

I cannot sell the M Scaler in good conscience (see below on transparency) so I will keep it. Maybe even use it; I mean it's a sunk cost now and I detected no degradation in sound from it (whatever the degradation of signal that Amir is referring to, I can't hear it, although as I mentioned above I can't say I notice a difference right now not having it).

I still don't have as hard a line against the M Scaler as many posting here. My own takeaways after thinking about Amir's review are more nuanced:

1- I'm disappointed in Chord's lack of transparency. They should not have marketed this device as something to use for non-Chord DACs. And it is marketed this way, look at the website. Rob Watts own comments clearly indicate he designed this specifically for the Chord DACs. I'm not blaming him personally for this decision; I know that there's a lots of decisions with these things and could easily see the hand of marketing/corporate to insist that the device.

2- It's clear the 16x is the intended mode. It feels like the 2x and 4x modes were just thrown in to accommodate other DACs. They should have been transparent about this. Again, the tone of Rob Watts' comments indicates he doesn't really feel these modes are important.

3- I've seen some people post here to the effect that they are not going to buy a Chord product against because of the M Scaler review. To me, that is as irrational thinking as what they accuse the people on the Headfi forums. You can make good products and have a dud. It doesn't take away from your other products, assuming they can stand by themselves as having good quality. I have Chord DACs, I like them. I like the Chord 2Go as well as a streaming device. Maybe Amir will eviscerate the Hugo 2 if he looks at it again and make me question my judgment but let's see.

4- I'm not going to conclude that Rob Watts is a fraud. How would I know? I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. People can believe their own dreams, you know, even when they're misguided. Especially when they put a lot of time into them. Even the smartest of us can fall for the simple fallacy that all progress scales linearly (40,000 taps good; 1,000,000 taps must be amazing!). However, here I believe Amir is right, blind testing can provide a useful correction for the maverick inventors who often do spark innovation. It's an easy thing to implement as part of a product development phase, yet for some reason people resist it.

5- I'm also staying open to the possibility of impacts of ultrasonic frequencies that might be affected by things like hi-res audio and upscaling. I'm not saying that humans can hear ultrasonic frequencies. But there is growing evidence that ultrasonic frequencies can impact how we feel. No nothing is established yet in terms of audio. But there's enough studies out there that it's not a preposterous notion, people who are exposed to constant levels of ultrasonic noise reporting fatigue, sickness, etc. One of the things in audio that people notice is listening fatigue. It's not clear what causes it. It's also not something you can easily blind test, because it takes effect after, say, 30-45 minutes of listening to music. When people say they prefer the M Scaler 16x sound (I can't say I'm one of them), perhaps they are referring to something like this, the music is less fatiguing. I don't think this is testable at all at the moment. Still, I don't want to just dismiss it for that reason; I'm not a logical positivist!

6- After all that though, I would ask someone who wants to buy an M Scaler why they just shouldn't start with the HQ Player first and see if it makes any difference at all. And go from there.

7- I saw that Amir posted two sound files, one sampled at bypass and the other at 2x. Is that a fair thing to do? I mean does it accurately capture the signal coming out to the M Scaler (I don't have the technical wherewithal to know). If so, I have to wonder why Chord just doesn't do this on their own website. Let people download an upsampled sound file after the M Scaler processes it at 16x, and then the original sample, and let people decide. If it's as good as Chord thinks it is, then it should sell itself.
I would sell it with a clear conscience. Point buyers to this review as reason for selling it. There are people who will buy one anyway. You'll save them some money and save resources needed to make another one. You'll recoup most of your sunk cost.
 

deniall83

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Question (and sorry if I offend), but I see a common theme whenever Amir posts measurements like these, from other forums and people stating that he a) isn't using the measuring equipment properly and b) isn't interpreting the results properly. These people usually name other reviewers who they say are more credible or trustworthy. People like GoldenSound or Erin's Audio. SBAF and /r/Audiophile say this too.

I'm curious, why does this keep coming up? What is Amir doing that these others aren't and why do people think he's less experienced or credible than these others?
 

curiousland

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I would sell it with a clear conscience. Point buyers to this review as reason for selling it. There are people who will buy one anyway. You'll save them some money and save resources needed to make another one. You'll recoup most of your sunk cost.

Whoever owns/purchased one shall know at the least that this is a "post" acquisition and mastering digital processing box -- can't recover nor add lost information but trying to "enhance" or "highlight" the signal to some people's like. As the result some would like it and some would not and some can't detect any difference at all even at the cost of screwing some raw signal, just like in high-dimensional signal linear or nonlinear processing for either better visual effect or event detection (in biomedical or military target detection applications). In that context, nothing will be perfect and most likely some compromise occurred. For that matter as an engineer I don't regret spent the $$ to test it out and still have good respect to M Scaler designer as another Engineer putting in his effect for doing the "better" signal enhancement he believes/hears is good.
 

JSmith

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I'm not going to conclude that Rob Watts is a fraud.
I don't recall anyone posting anything along those lines... although his comments suggesting one must be deaf or have poor hearing not to hear the marked difference was a bit off, yet there is no proper evidence of such a change.


JSmith
 

rubley00

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What in the name of god would possess someone to buy something like this? There's no need to create extra interpolated bits, you'll never hear them.
 
OP
amirm

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Question (and sorry if I offend), but I see a common theme whenever Amir posts measurements like these, from other forums and people stating that he a) isn't using the measuring equipment properly and b) isn't interpreting the results properly. These people usually name other reviewers who they say are more credible or trustworthy. People like GoldenSound or Erin's Audio. SBAF and /r/Audiophile say this too.

I'm curious, why does this keep coming up? What is Amir doing that these others aren't and why do people think he's less experienced or credible than these others?
Legitimate reason is that they confuse one measurement for another when they are either different or presented differently. Earlier this claim was made that stereophile measurements showed 120 dB of attenuation while mine showed 80 to 90 dB. I pointed out that the stereophile showed the same as their "zero" reference as -40. So the differential was 80 dB. This happens fair bit because people just go by the punchline text in the measurements and not look in detail.

The bigger reason is that they don't want to believe the results. So they resort to talking points and other nonsense. They need to be reminded that I have tested around 1,200 products. If measurements were wrong, you would see a line mile long from manufacturers saying the measurements are wrong. We don't see this because it simply is not the case. While mistakes can happen from time to time, they simply are not routine. And at any rate, could easily be shown with identical setup and explanation which almost never happens.

Bottom line, listen to manufacturer providing own measurement with different outcome. This is something I welcome in every review. If this doesn't happen, then that is it. Folks complaining because they have websites/youtube channels doesn't count.
 

Blumlein 88

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Question (and sorry if I offend), but I see a common theme whenever Amir posts measurements like these, from other forums and people stating that he a) isn't using the measuring equipment properly and b) isn't interpreting the results properly. These people usually name other reviewers who they say are more credible or trustworthy. People like GoldenSound or Erin's Audio. SBAF and /r/Audiophile say this too.

I'm curious, why does this keep coming up? What is Amir doing that these others aren't and why do people think he's less experienced or credible than these others?
The answer is in your user name. Denial.

I do wish @amirm would remeasure the Topping 70 for the weird non-harmonic result. If it is the same, I personally would be curious about trying to find out why. Even if he is not, confirmation something wasn't amiss seems in order.
 
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