CHORD M-Scaler Review (Upsampler)

[AudioSceptic]

ALL Chord stuff is expensive, if not now in Naim's higher category (in the UK). I remember the stereo power amp they made decades back (SPM 1200?) which wasn't cheap to start with and with a very solid black brushed case and a recessed gold name badge. They re-clothed it in the steam punk stylee they seem to like and increased the price quite a bit, but sales increased (I have a memory of the head honcho there telling someone about this once at a UK audio show but it was a long time ago I admit). The 1200 was a very good solid tough amp which the BBC used in later versions of their active LS5/8's, but better than a third-the-price Quad 606 a gent brought in to be checked over, stone cold out of a taxi and which we directly compared (Chord had been powered on for a few hours)? Put it this way, my respect for the mk1 issue Quad 606 went up many notches after that (more to tell on this but not for now)

I think RW's portfolio is mainly the digital side I think, the amplifier side which seems a bit slimmed down these days.

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After my recent hearing tests, the Audiologist showed my how a young persons ears would 'measure' on their gear, then a typical mid 60 year old and then me Believe me, a 60+ year old chap with good hearing would have hf sensitivity (mid khz frequencies) naturally well down on a twenty year old's hearing I suggest. I appreciate the brain makes up for some of it, but in my experience., nowhere near all... basic testing here stops at 9kHz, so no idea as to frequencies higher than this (at 16 years old, I certainly could hear 18kHz and the 15k TV line whistles in 405 line TV's used to hurt my ears, but that was a long time ago now...

I'm wondering if I've misread what you wrote, but you can easy get test tones of any frequency you like, and use your own gear for the tests <https://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_index.php>. You can also use REW or Audacity to generate them yourself.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Long post, so bear with me. I’ve had the Topping DSE90 for a week now and compared it to the DAVE. Here are my subjective impressions. I think they'll be helpful for someone following this thread and wondering “how could all the glowing Chord reviews” be wrong.

Aside on blind testing since it's so often mentioned here. Blind would be ideal but I don’t think standardized blind testing will ever be the norm in audio except by the manufacturers. It’s too impractical for a consumer. (How can you really blind test headphones anyway, all of which feel different on your head? You can only really make a mock Utopia if you’re Focal). And I can’t imagine how you would do double blind testing on audio components. I don’t think subjective tests are pointless, though. The point of blind testing is to isolate causal factors to get rid of confounders (bias being the chief one here), but there are many areas in science where you cannot blind test. You get around this by increasing your data set. You measure the tested variable under many different circumstances and then use linear regression to determine whether the “causal” influence or weight to the tested variable. The idea being that with a large enough data set, the statistical noise added by possible confounders washes out.

Ok, I didn’t do quite that, just an amateur imitation of it. I tested the Topping vs. DAVE on multiple systems using 3 headphones and 2 loudspeakers. I also got my teenage age son to help me, which was partially a blind test because he doesn’t know the value difference of the DACs. I also tried tube amps and solid states. I tried on multiple days to minimize the “new toy” factor. I even tried in different rooms because my loudspeakers are in different locations. I used balanced XLR interconnects as well as unbalanced interconnects, although one of my amps only takes RCA interconnects. I tried CDs as well as Qobuz Flacs and Tidal MQA on Roon.

I was expecting a wash, but to my surprise the Topping D90SE was superior to the DAVE in every scenario. And the more expensive the speaker, the more the difference was noticeable for both me and my son. I have no idea about quality control or build quality of the Topping, I’ve only had it a week. But sonically, no contest for me.

I was shocked. I’m not even upset about the money factor, because my sound system, which I thought already sounded great, sounds even better. I was even thinking about letting anyone who is in NYC come check it out, but perhaps a better direction is: if you can afford the DAVE, the Topping is a less than 1/10 of the cost. So buy it, and compare honestly and see what you think. Take the DAVE out for a couple of days and see if you miss them. Meanwhile, I sent the DAVE in for measurements and let's see what they say.

I list the components below. As you can see, I have more tube amps right now than solid state so maybe that was a factor.

Rather than say all the usual things about sound quality, let me just say that I’m starting to think the point of a DAC is to simply to get out of the way as cleanly as possible. I feel like the Topping DE90 does that better than the DAVE. It allows my speakers and amp to do what they’re supposed to. If you like euphonic distortions, get a nice tube amp rather than go through the the DAC to get it.

And spend most of your budget on speakers, as opposed to 50% which is what most dealers will try to tell you.

I don’t want to bash Chord. The DAVE is a great sounding DAC. But it was released in 2015. I think it has been left in the dust with some of the newer products coming out now at a much cheaper price point.

Speakers used: BW 802D4 tower, BW 805D bookshelf, Hifiman Shangrila, Hifiman Susvara, Focal Utopia
Amps: Airtight ATM-300, Primaluna EVO 400, Danatone Headspace, Peachtree Nova 500

I expected you to say that there was *no* audible difference, which would be already sufficient to make the point, but I find it highly unlikely that the Topping would be audibly better in a truly level matched blind test. What led you to buy the DAVE in the first place?

 

[srkbear]

I expected you to say that there was *no* audible difference, which would be already sufficient to make the point, but I find it highly unlikely that the Topping would be audibly better in a truly level matched blind test. What led you to buy the DAVE in the first place?

The Topping is a pure DAC, while the DAVE is a $14,000 integrated DAC/amp monstrosity with 8 year old tech. I don’t even see how the two could be subjected to a well-controlled ABX test, to be honest. The Topping is balanced, while the DAVE, when used with its own headphone amp, is strictly single ended. He doesn’t offer any detail on the amp configuration he used with the Topping, and depending on those factors he could have indeed heard superior results over the DAVE, assuming the two were precisely volume matched. But I agree with your assessment that his methods were wildly uncontrolled.

 

[Jomungur]

I expected you to say that there was *no* audible difference, which would be already sufficient to make the point, but I find it highly unlikely that the Topping would be audibly better in a truly level matched blind test. What led you to buy the DAVE in the first place?

Yeah, I was surprised too. And I'm not saying anybody should make the decision based on my subjective impressions; although I would definitely ask anyone who has a DAVE to give the Topping a fair chance rather than just immediately pooh-pooh it based on price. It's enough to get the Chords out of my system. I am also partially responding to a few others who earlier in this thread asked my subjective impressions, since it's not common to find someone who has tried the DAVE and Topping in their home system.

I'm not shocked by the result after thinking about it. Forget about price- if the Topping has superior measurements in terms of THD, etc. is it implausible that it would perform better with revealing speakers/headphones? Or that 7 years of technological advances might be at play here?

A couple of things I should have clarified: I didn't use the DAVE's headphone jack, I used it purely as a DAC. For the headphones, the energizer was the Hifiman native one (for the electrostat), and the Danatone Headspace solid state headphone amp (for the Susvara and Utopia).

In answer to your last question, I bought the DAVE as part of system package. As a whole the system sounded great, but I was also naive about audio. When you don't know much about how a class of products work, especially a niche product like expensive DACs, you often use price and reputation as a proxy for quality. Lacking objective measurements or reviews, what else can you go by? (Also, the Topping D90SE wasn't available when I bought the DAVE, although in fairness I can't imagine the dealer I got the system from would be using the Topping now).

 

[srkbear]

Yeah, I was surprised too. And I'm not saying anybody should make the decision based on my subjective impressions; although I would definitely ask anyone who has a DAVE to give the Topping a fair chance rather than just immediately pooh-pooh it based on price. It's enough to get the Chords out of my system. I am also partially responding to a few others who earlier in this thread asked my subjective impressions, since it's not common to find someone who has tried the DAVE and Topping in their home system.

I'm not shocked by the result after thinking about it. Forget about price- if the Topping has superior measurements in terms of THD, etc. is it implausible that it would perform better with revealing speakers/headphones? Or that 7 years of technological advances might be at play here?

A couple of things I should have clarified: I didn't use the DAVE's headphone jack, I used it purely as a DAC. For the headphones, the energizer was the Hifiman Shangrila (for the electrostats), and the Danatone Headspace solid state headphone amp (for the Susvara and Utopia).

In answer to your last question, I bought the DAVE as part of system package. As a whole the system sounded great, but I was also naive about audio. And I bought into all the Chord hype. (Also, the Topping D90SE wasn't available when I bought the DAVE, although in fairness I can't imagine the dealer I got the system from would be using the Topping now).

So you’re using the same amp with both? Are both connections to the amp balanced? The topping has a 5V output (if you’ve set it there, which I recommend) and I believe the DAVE might be lower, but I haven’t verified. It’s eight year old technology. Just remember that volume differences are one of the major confounds in ABX testing—louder almost always sounds better…

 

[srkbear]

Yeah, I was surprised too. And I'm not saying anybody should make the decision based on my subjective impressions; although I would definitely ask anyone who has a DAVE to give the Topping a fair chance rather than just immediately pooh-pooh it based on price. It's enough to get the Chords out of my system. I am also partially responding to a few others who earlier in this thread asked my subjective impressions, since it's not common to find someone who has tried the DAVE and Topping in their home system.

I'm not shocked by the result after thinking about it. Forget about price- if the Topping has superior measurements in terms of THD, etc. is it implausible that it would perform better with revealing speakers/headphones? Or that 7 years of technological advances might be at play here?

A couple of things I should have clarified: I didn't use the DAVE's headphone jack, I used it purely as a DAC. For the headphones, the energizer was the Hifiman Shangrila (for the electrostats), and the Danatone Headspace solid state headphone amp (for the Susvara and Utopia).

In answer to your last question, I bought the DAVE as part of system package. As a whole the system sounded great, but I was also naive about audio. When you don't know much about how a class of products work, you often use price and reputation as a proxy for quality. Lacking objective measurements or reviews, what else can you go by? (Also, the Topping D90SE wasn't available when I bought the DAVE, although in fairness I can't imagine the dealer I got the system from would be using the Topping now).

I don’t think you have to worry on here that anyone is going to be swayed in their buying choices based on your experience with those two brands—I know of quite a few folks who have chosen the D90se based on Amir’s review, but I highly doubt anyone ever went for Chord based on same! Buying Chord is the polar opposite of what this site is all about—Chord can get away with charging $14,000 for antiquated tech solely based on marketing strategy, hype, and yes, that alluring price…

 

[AudioSceptic]

The Topping is a pure DAC, while the DAVE is a $14,000 integrated DAC/amp monstrosity with 8 year old tech. I don’t even see how the two could be subjected to a well-controlled ABX test, to be honest. The Topping is balanced, while the DAVE, when used with its own headphone amp, is strictly single ended. He doesn’t offer any detail on the amp configuration he used with the Topping, and depending on those factors he could have indeed heard superior results over the DAVE, assuming the two were precisely volume matched. But I agree with your assessment that his methods were wildly uncontrolled.

OK, but we have to assume the DAVE was used as DAC-only, or how else could the comparison be made? As for 8 years old, so what? A super-high-end component of that age should be competitive with a current budget (yes, I know) item. As it happens, I don't consider the DAVE a monstrosity, just overpriced. IMO it makes sense to combine those functions and in fact, I consider the omission of a streamer a mistake. Whatever, I'd expect any difference to be beyond audibility in a proper test (and especially so with tube amps!).

 

[Jomungur]

So you’re using the same amp with both? Are both connections to the amp balanced? The topping has a 5V output (if you’ve set it there, which I recommend) and I believe the DAVE might be lower, but I haven’t verified. It’s eight year old technology. Just remember that volume differences are one of the major confounds in ABX testing—louder almost always sounds better…

Yes, same amp with both. I have two amps actually, one for each speaker system. Set Topping to 5V, DAVE is 6v on balanced, I don't know what on unbalanced. I listed the amps at the bottom of my text. The Airtight ATM-300 only takes unbalanced connections, so I had to use those for that amp (which is matched to the BW 802d4s). The DAVE was indeed louder so I had to turn it down. I also used the Peachtree solid state in unbalanced mode for both just to not do tube amps only.

Someone asked about streamer: I used the Chord 2go/2yu combo on Ethernet with Roon. Roon Nucleus core. USB connection from 2yu to DACs.

However, please note I'm not trying to put too much stock on my personal test, that was just for me and those who were curious. Make of it what you will. Hopefully we get objective measurements on it eventually.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

I think since most of us here don't post results of our blind tests, actually I'm not even sure if most of you guys even do blind tests (at home) to compare result each time you have something different in your sound system. The guy shared his impression and noted that it's just his subjective experience in his own comfy, familiar environment so it is what it is.

The good thing about that is now we have someone who has both the DAVE (audiophile-crazed DAC) and D90SE (SOTA DAC according to ASR), and he reported positive listening experiences with D90. Now we have both strong objective measurements and subjective remarks with the device. People from other sites can't just come and say "if you had [insert very Hi-End DAC] you've thrown away your Topping" or other absurd accusations like that. (someone once called me poor because that's why I did not get to try and really experience TOTL sound and I can't refute because I am actually poor)

And that all makes it harder for hardcore audiophiles to deny the necessity of measurements because someone else who uses exactly what they use just kinda turned on them (in a good way). And instead of him bashing [insert Hi-End product] or praising measurements and rationality (those 2 decisions might fuel yet another audiophile vs sound science argument btw), he chose to suggest people try it for themselves. That's pretty neutral, fair and reasonable.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Yeah, I was surprised too. And I'm not saying anybody should make the decision based on my subjective impressions; although I would definitely ask anyone who has a DAVE to give the Topping a fair chance rather than just immediately pooh-pooh it based on price. It's enough to get the Chords out of my system. I am also partially responding to a few others who earlier in this thread asked my subjective impressions, since it's not common to find someone who has tried the DAVE and Topping in their home system.

I'm not shocked by the result after thinking about it. Forget about price- if the Topping has superior measurements in terms of THD, etc. is it implausible that it would perform better with revealing speakers/headphones? Or that 7 years of technological advances might be at play here?

A couple of things I should have clarified: I didn't use the DAVE's headphone jack, I used it purely as a DAC. For the headphones, the energizer was the Hifiman native one (for the electrostat), and the Danatone Headspace solid state headphone amp (for the Susvara and Utopia).

In answer to your last question, I bought the DAVE as part of system package. As a whole the system sounded great, but I was also naive about audio. When you don't know much about how a class of products work, especially a niche product like expensive DACs, you often use price and reputation as a proxy for quality. Lacking objective measurements or reviews, what else can you go by? (Also, the Topping D90SE wasn't available when I bought the DAVE, although in fairness I can't imagine the dealer I got the system from would be using the Topping now).

Thanks, but how would any difference between DACs be audible once we're past, say, 100 dB SINAD? No transducer can get close to that, and it's unlikely with most amps. Do you know what the SINAD of your valve (tube) amps would be?

Have you considered any of the much cheaper DACs? The D90SE is only better than many others by a tiny amount.

Edit: Airtight measured here <https://www.stereophile.com/content/air-tight-atm-300r-power-amplifier-measurements>. Do measurements matter or not?

 

[DSJR]

I'm wondering if I've misread what you wrote, but you can easy get test tones of any frequency you like, and use your own gear for the tests <https://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_index.php>. You can also use REW or Audacity to generate them yourself.

Yes of course, but the hearing (and bone conduction) tests were with properly calibrated 'headphones' done professionally by an audiologist. they don't 'do' bass and over 9kHz and having seen headphone measurements here and elsewhere, I'd not trust my Sennheisers to be 'flat' enough up top (HD25SP and HD265's). The aids give me ample hf now and I don't need more All of course nothing to do with the item under review. I'd never play hf test tones through speakers as it'd cost me dear to get replacement tweeters.

 

[Deleted member 11516]

WOW, fantastic to read all the above Love & Hate and same over at HeadFi...what can I say....I love my Mscaler and Yes I can hear a positive difference and that's what counts IMHO.

I am glad to see there is so much emotions involved on both sides of the fence, engaging to say the least.

 

[AudioSceptic]

WOW, fantastic to read all the above Love & Hate and same over at HeadFi...what can I say....I love my Mscaler and Yes I can hear a positive difference and that's what counts IMHO.

I am glad to see there is so much emotions involved on both sides of the fence, engaging to say the least.

You seem not to understand that measurements and blind listening tests are meant to exclude emotion from the issue altogether.

 

[AudioSceptic]

To me the $1M question is how he arrives at his price points.

Rob Watts or John Franks? Watts does the digital design but Franks is the Chord owner and chief designer AFAIK.

 

[danadam]

More on topic; in that same thread I also posted a part of an interview on 6moons.com where Watts explaines why we need a device like the M-Scaler:

"As Rob explained, the inter-aural-delay neural network of our brain measures time delays between our ears. It operates at ~4µs for a biological 250kHz sample rate. That's far in excess of Redbook's own 22µs timing. Rob's contention is that a FIR filter akin to our brain's processing power would require 1'000'000 filter taps. That's still beyond current tech. But Hugo's WTA filter already uses 26'368 taps which rely on 16 paralleled 208MHz DSP cores. Hence Chord's refusal to work with commercial chips. Their 150-250 taps are far too low-rent to keep up with the bio DSP of our human brains".

Again very strong claims, unless anyone knows of any research that supports his ITD biosampling theory.

Actually, the redbook's 22µs claim is more problematic (i.e. wrong) than the hearing's ~4µs one.

 

[audiotron]

Looks like my Alcatel DSL modem from 1999.

 

[Wunderphones]

Actually, the redbook's 22µs claim is more problematic (i.e. wrong) than the hearing's ~4µs one.

Why would that be wrong? If a second is divided into 1000 equal parts (that's what a µs is, right? a 1000th?), then each slice of the redbook format's 44.1 slices per second would be responsible for about 22 µs.

 

[amirm]

Why would that be wrong? If a second is divided into 1000 equal parts (that's what a µs is, right? a 1000th?), then each slice of the redbook format's 44.1 slices per second would be responsible for about 22 µs.

Because the slice doesn't determine timing. Sampling fully reproduces the input signal at any phase angle. The in-between voltages are completely represented.

What determines the timing resolution is how fast the signal is changing relative to bit depth. With 24-bit bit depth, and bandwidth of just 20 kHz, you have extremely good timing resolution.

 

[Wunderphones]

Interesting. Watts seems to have gone to some truly obsessive lengths to solve a problem that isn't real.

 

[Lukino]

Chord is an expensive product. I think they start with the appearance of the cabinet during production. It will add extra. People who want an extra cabinet that no one has. The product is not intended for measurements, nor does the company wish it to be. That's business. If you measure it anyway, it won't be bad...about $100 DAC. And above all, talk a lot, start bullshit and, if possible, not measure. Engineering has changed a lot in 8 years. Only good things for the consumer. Today we can measure sound devices, speakers and develop things like that modern precision equipment and not only audio. Several times better than the ear and the eye. Even a doctor who treats the heart will not put his head to your chest and say....Your heart beats like a bell....Of course he will measure with a sensitive device and determine the diagnosis. This forum helps a person to buy a product that is accurate, transmits sound well and does not spend a lot. And to describe it less subjectively.