Choosing between the Denon X8500H, X6700H, X4700H and X3700H (Updated)

[Scubaduderon]

Found the Stereophile measurements of the 8008, not sure if it is the same as your 8008BB, if it is, of course it should be able to sound super clean and smooth, as long as the input signal to it is super clean, and that means the quality of the recording/mastering of the media contents has to be clean too.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/aragon-8008-power-amplifier-measurements

View attachment 85510
Fig.9 Aragon 8008, distortion (%) vs output power into (from bottom to top at 100W): 8 ohms, 4 ohms, and 2 ohms.

Freq response, square wave, cross talk all looked great too.

Below are the square wave measurements of the Aragon amp vs the Emotiva Gen3:
You can visually tell which one is more like a perfect square, whether the difference would result in any audible difference or not is a different story.

View attachment 85513
Fig.2 Aragon 8008, small-signal 10kHz squarewave into 8 ohms.


https://www.stereophile.com/content/emotiva-xpa-gen3-two-channel-power-amplifier-measurements

View attachment 85515
Fig.2 Emotiva XPA Gen3, small-signal, 10kHz squarewave into 8 ohms.

There are two models of the original Aragon 8008, the ST, and the BB. The BB is like the ST, but on steroids. Here's a link to a review of the BB model.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4_4/aragon8008bb.html

When I read this review, I started shopping... Reviews do matter. When I read the review here of the Denon 4700 and its associated questions and answers, I started shopping...

Thank you again for your efforts, they are greatly appreciated.

I love this site!

Ron

 

[Endo]

The real advantage of the X8500H is when the preamp outputs will be used, especially if a mix of preamp outputs and internal power amplifier channels are used. The ability to disconnect the preamps from the power amplifiers on a channel-by-channel basis is a significant advantage in this case. Purchase of say a three channel power amplifier for the L/C/R channels and driving it with clean preamp outputs while still being able to use all of the good internal amplifiers, is a very cost effective, as well a very good performing solution. External power for only a few channels is clearly much more cost effective then using external power amplifiers for all channels.

Could you explain this? I am thinking of purchasing the X4700H or the X3700H but could see one day adding a 2 or 3-channel amp if I really want to blow the doors off.

Both of these models have a pre-amp out- what are the downsides of using the pre-amp out and an external amp if you can't "disconnect the preamp from the power amplifier on a channel-by-channel basis?"

Appreciate the clarification.

 

[Bello]

Could you explain this? I am thinking of purchasing the X4700H or the X3700H but could see one day adding a 2 or 3-channel amp if I really want to blow the doors off.

Both of these models have a pre-amp out- what are the downsides of using the pre-amp out and an external amp if you can't "disconnect the preamp from the power amplifier on a channel-by-channel basis?"

Appreciate the clarification.

Endo- No downside, just a bit of a difference in the two. Either you go full Preamp mode (all preamp out) which in essence will bi-pass (all or none) internal amps. The difference between 8500H / and all other lower models. The 8500H has the ability to bi-pass and + shut down / switch off power each channel, independently. All other lower models have the ability to just disconnect the load, not power. Inactive power remains on the amps w/ out a load present, no current flow.

Having the ability to shut down power, per channel (8500H) "on demand" is a big thing.

Good luck!

 

[eduardw]

I will order the denon 3700h soon. I will start with pre out for front and center. And in a few months i will only use pre amp mode and not the internal amps. For now I missing for amplification for 3 channels.

 

[Bello]

STEREOPHILE’S 2020 FALL WINNER!

As I previously confirmed (and I'm Not an audiophile) as to my sound test of my XPA-7 GEN 3 amp performance. Full Pre-amp Mode w/ X6700H, incredible sound! + SVS Ultra Towers ~ Ultra surround - Grand slam!!!

Now it's confirmed for those of you in doubt or misleading others. Price point Home run!

Full RC2020 review link below.

Kudos to Emotiva!

MOD EDIT: Deleted the rest of the press release.

 

[vavan]

link below

MOD EDIT: Deleted the rest

link didn't survive

 

[Bello]

link didn't survive

Vavan- The link was most differently posted.

The Moderator pulled it off (Last edited by a moderator: Yesterday at 11:24 PM)

Lets try a partial post w/ the link included. The page / RC2020 award winning post. View the preview link below.


STEREOPHILE’S 2020 FALL WINNER!
All hail the X Series! We’re excited to share that our XPA-2 two channel amplifier recently won two awards from Stereophile.
We’re especially excited because the X series is our flagship collection of products. Read Sterophile’s review and then go create your own superb sound setup starting with the XPA-2!

Emotiva brand—taken from the Italian word for emotion. We saw the inefficiencies in the system and the ever-climbing prices, and decided to do something about it.

READ THE PREVIEW​

 

[Dan1210]

Hi, great thread thanks! I’m looking for a Denon unit to use as a pre amplifier with a nad m27, I’m told the X8500H has a better DSP chip that is better for ‘effects steering’ although I can’t find any documentation that says the DSPs in the 8500 is any different to the 3700. Is it worth the extra over the lower models if I’m just using it as a pre-amp?
Cheers!

 

[Dj7675]

Hi, great thread thanks! I’m looking for a Denon unit to use as a pre amplifier with a nad m27, I’m told the X8500H has a better DSP chip that is better for ‘effects steering’ although I can’t find any documentation that says the DSPs in the 8500 is any different to the 3700. Is it worth the extra over the lower models if I’m just using it as a pre-amp?
Cheers!

Seems like the x3700 is better for you... if
-You don't need to us any internal amps
-You don't plan on using any more than 13 channels
-You don't need any of the extra features of the x8500 such as the dialogue enhancer
-You don't care about Auro processing ( I find it quite nice on upmixing 2 channel music)

The real value of the x8500 is the 13 channels of processing, and the ability to disconnect select channels so you can use some amps on some channels and use external amplification on the others to get best performance. But since you plan on using the x3700 in preamp mode, all amps are disconnected. The other big advantage of the x8500 is dtsx pro to enjoy 13 channels of processing on dtsx material. I own the 8500 but if I didn't would opt for a 3700 or 4700 if I didn't want the 13 channel processing.

 

[Dan1210]

Hey Dj, yes I think so I’m just curious if the dsp chips are the same as the 8500 and if there is any difference in effects separation/steering, I’m looking to gain the best fidelity possible. It’s easy to get caught up in all this and likely the 3700 would suffice although I’m still curious if the 8500 would actually sound any better only as a pre-amp, in the uk I’m looking at slightly over double the price for the 8500 over the 3700.
If I bought the 8500 I could sell the Rotel 1565 I’m currently using for my 4 Atmos in ceiling speakers...

 

[Grandzoltar]

The x8500 review shows better numbers then the x3700 if your interested in the most fidelity possible. You could wait till the denon avr a110 gets measured which could be the new crowned avr king. Get the x8500 so you don't get buyers remorse. The AL32 processor is used in the x8500. The avr a110 talks about an ultra AL32 processor

 

[MaxTemp]

Hi, great thread thanks! I’m looking for a Denon unit to use as a pre amplifier with a nad m27, I’m told the X8500H has a better DSP chip that is better for ‘effects steering’ although I can’t find any documentation that says the DSPs in the 8500 is any different to the 3700. Is it worth the extra over the lower models if I’m just using it as a pre-amp?
Cheers!

Thats the combo that I have. I use the NAD M27 for the floor level speakers and the internal Denon x8500 amps for the height channels.
The x8500 uses a higher end SHARC DSP and if I remember correctly its the same one used in the Emotiva Processors.
You can search it to find more details and also check here for some other comparisons.
https://www.zkelectronics.com/compa...x8500h)/usa/denon-avr-x3700h(avc-x3700h)/usa/
I would recommend the x8500 (if funds werent an issue) any day over the x3700 even if just using external amps.

 

[bo_knows]

Thats the combo that I have. I use the NAD M27 for the floor level speakers and the internal Denon x8500 amps for the height channels.
The x8500 uses a higher end SHARC DSP and if I remember correctly its the same one used in the Emotiva Processors.
You can search it to find more details and also check here for some other comparisons.
https://www.zkelectronics.com/compa...x8500h)/usa/denon-avr-x3700h(avc-x3700h)/usa/
I would recommend the x8500 (if funds werent an issue) any day over the x3700 even if just using external amps.

Hi MaxTemp,

I'm considering buying the newly released NAD C298 amplifier to help out my Denon x8500 with the front two channels (KEF R500).
Could you please tell me if you can hear the difference between Denon's internal amps vs your NAD M27? If you can hear the difference, could you please elaborate a little bit on what do you hear? I'm trying to justify the purchase of the new NAD C298 with Purifi amp technology and your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

P.S. I forgot to say that I have zero experience with the D class amplification.

 

[MaxTemp]

Hi MaxTemp,

I'm considering buying the newly released NAD C298 amplifier to help out my Denon x8500 with the front two channels (KEF R500).
Could you please tell me if you can hear the difference between Denon's internal amps vs your NAD M27? If you can hear the difference, could you please elaborate a little bit on what do you hear? I'm trying to justify the purchase of the new NAD C298 with Purifi amp technology and your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

P.S. I forgot to say that I have zero experience with the D class amplification.

The instantly noticeable difference is when you turn up the volume. I can easily go at least 6db more using the NAD M27 without the sound becoming harsh or fatiguing. I use the Revel F208 and looking at impedance tests it can dip below 4ohms at multiple frequencies, so the external amp can drive it without issues. The KEF R500 is rated at the same sensitivity as my speakers, so that shouldnt play much of a part.
It will depend on the amount of speakers you use. For 2 channel listening and crossing at 80Hz to your subs I dont think it will make a noticeable enough difference to matter. Using 7+ speakers, then it makes sense to use an external amp. I would include the center channel as well.
For 2 channel music listening, using your PC or an external player instead of HEOS makes more of a difference.
People say turning Audyssey off made their music sound better. When I tested this I found if its through HEOS, then yes, its true (in a treated room which mine is). If I used Tidal through the PC connected through HDMI or even youtube, then it sounds better and theres no reason to turn Audyssey off.

 

[bo_knows]

The instantly noticeable difference is when you turn up the volume. I can easily go at least 6db more using the NAD M27 without the sound becoming harsh or fatiguing. I use the Revel F208 and looking at impedance tests it can dip below 4ohms at multiple frequencies, so the external amp can drive it without issues. The KEF R500 is rated at the same sensitivity as my speakers, so that shouldnt play much of a part.
It will depend on the amount of speakers you use. For 2 channel listening and crossing at 80Hz to your subs I dont think it will make a noticeable enough difference to matter. Using 7+ speakers, then it makes sense to use an external amp. I would include the center channel as well.
For 2 channel music listening, using your PC or an external player instead of HEOS makes more of a difference.
People say turning Audyssey off made their music sound better. When I tested this I found if its through HEOS, then yes, its true (in a treated room which mine is). If I used Tidal through the PC connected through HDMI or even youtube, then it sounds better and theres no reason to turn Audyssey off.

Thank you for your reply.
I use very small surround speakers for my home theater and my wife doesn't like to watch shows/movies at the loud level (max 64 on the volume) so existing power from Denon is fine. I just wanted to see if I could ring the extra performance (I guess I would need to define what that is) with the external two-channel amplifier that has better tech specs than Denon. I do use the KEF R400B subwoofer for the two-channel listening and listening to music with Audyssey off and via the pure direct mode (my room is fully acoustically treated). I think the subwoofer signal is crossed to 80hz in Denon manual setup for the subwoofer and LFE+Main is also selected. For the 2ch playback, I have set my front speakers to large. I guess I'm hoping that the new NAD would add more resolution, more define bass with a deeper and wider soundstage. When you are listening to your amp in stereo, do you hear such improvement?
Thanks

 

[MaxTemp]

Thank you for your reply.
I use very small surround speakers for my home theater and my wife doesn't like to watch shows/movies at the loud level (max 64 on the volume) so existing power from Denon is fine. I just wanted to see if I could ring the extra performance (I guess I would need to define what that is) with the external two-channel amplifier that has better tech specs than Denon. I do use the KEF R400B subwoofer for the two-channel listening and listening to music with Audyssey off and via the pure direct mode (my room is fully acoustically treated). I think the subwoofer signal is crossed to 80hz in Denon manual setup for the subwoofer and LFE+Main is also selected. For the 2ch playback, I have set my front speakers to large. I guess I'm hoping that the new NAD would add more resolution, more define bass with a deeper and wider soundstage. When you are listening to your amp in stereo, do you hear such improvement?
Thanks

No it wont and I dont hear the improvement in 2 channel. You will be wasting your money for that purpose. Use the funds to get 2 Rythmik subs as they have many sizes to suit your taste and crossover to 80Hz without using the LFE+Main option. That will be the biggest upgrade you can do. You will immediately notice the improvement.

 

[bo_knows]

No it wont and I dont hear the improvement in 2 channel. You will be wasting your money for that purpose. Use the funds to get 2 Rythmik subs as they have many sizes to suit your taste and crossover to 80Hz without using the LFE+Main option. That will be the biggest upgrade you can do. You will immediately notice the improvement.

Thank you again for your honest opinion!
Yes, I could use those funds for the new better KEF speakers or additional sub.

 

[MaxTemp]

Thank you again for your honest opinion!
Yes, I could use those funds for the new better KEF speakers or additional sub.

You are leaving a lot of performance on the table by not going to 2 subs. Even after you get 2 subs, you need to use Audyssey to fix your bass frquencies, or what I use, which is miniDSP HD and that will transform your sound. It will be like you made a huge upgrade. I have tested these scenarios extensively, including using power conditioners, cables, external amplifier and 3 different AVRs. Nothing makes as much of an impact as 2 subs.

 

[Bello]

You are leaving a lot of performance on the table by not going to 2 subs. Even after you get 2 subs, you need to use Audyssey to fix your bass frquencies, or what I use, which is miniDSP HD and that will transform your sound. It will be like you made a huge upgrade. I have tested these scenarios extensively, including using power conditioners, cables, external amplifier and 3 different AVRs. Nothing makes as much of an impact as 2 subs.

Speaking of power / + power conditioners, I just added a Furman Pro 120vac / 20amp connecting most of my AV setup. After further research, if your external amp handles 100/240VAC vs just 120vac as in the Denon systems. Always go with the higher voltage. Higher voltage low amps has a cleaner AC signal. Runs at a much low amperage @ full power, 240vac, 100% of the time. No power deviation. Much less stress / noise / heat to your AMP Power Supply (In my case Emotiva XPA7-GEN3 full powered modules) I was lucky to have an outlet close by with 20amp service / 240VAC. A quick swap of the power cord to NEMA outlet w/ out the Furman power conditioner needed. When driving my Emotiva (fully pre-amp'd - Denon X6700H) Emotiva remains even cooler then before / ICE cold during my test w/ full power band, and even tighter performance. Quite amazing!

After consulting w/ Emotiva audio engineering. As they advised, this upgrade would provide the best overall performance for a High Powered dedicated AMP. Which makes total sense. Only if Denon would implement 100/240VAC internal power supply. I believe part of the heat issues, THD +N can possibly improve per the technical article below.



The 240V Option

Some high end amps can be switched over and run on 220 volts and I recommend it may sound better. The transformer primaries and the core seem to run slight more efficiently yielding lower impedance so the supply might appear slightly ‘stiffer’ to the amp’s audio circuits (always a good thing). Because the amp is now running at twice the voltage but half the amps (current) the wall wiring looks twice as thick to the amp as it does at 120 volt (ohms law). Now the amp makes even less audio noise on the line and it then rejects its own line noise better. The 220 volt outlet can be a standard 15 amp with 10 Ga.. Wire up to 80 feet then 8 gauge beyond that.

For the 220 volt lines, the electrician may, or may not know about a NEMA receptacle and plug number that is the same size and form as our common Edison duplex 120 volt receptacle but the wide blade of the plug is on the opposite side as the 120 volt duplex. Hubble or commercial Leviton works fine for 220 volt, and the 6-20 series looks less industrial in your home.

Full article link

https://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/how-to-wire-your-house-for-good-power/

 

[Flamjam]

The power differences between the X8500H, X6700H, X4700H and X3700H are about 1dB. If the requirement is for an AVR with only the internal amplifiers used, and with the number of power amplifiers that the X3700H or X4700H provide, then the lower price products provide a little cleaner power with about 1% less output. While the preamps of the X8500H and X6700H are the cleanest in the group, the good (actually a little disappointing), but not great distortion performance of the power amplifier channels is the limiting factor in the X8500H and X6700H power amplifier performance. There is little to no reason in this use case of 100% internal power amplifier channels, to choose the X6700H or X8500H unless based on features important to a specific user. This is good news. It means that there are low cost options with excellent performance.

If more power amplifier channels are required than the X3700H or X4700H provide then of course the X6700H with 11 channels, and the X8500 with 13 channels are the obvious choices.

The real advantage of the X8500H is when the preamp outputs will be used, especially if a mix of preamp outputs and internal power amplifier channels are used. The ability to disconnect the preamps from the power amplifiers on a channel-by-channel basis is a significant advantage in this case. Purchase of say a three channel power amplifier for the L/C/R channels and driving it with clean preamp outputs while still being able to use all of the good internal amplifiers, is a very cost effective, as well a very good performing solution. External power for only a few channels is clearly much more cost effective then using external power amplifiers for all channels.

For preamp-only use, the preamp outputs of the X8500H are a bit cleaner, which is nice. The X6700H is still excellent in the world of AVR’s. X3700H and X4700H are very good. Little is given up with the budget choices. It is very unfortunate that Marantz really doesn't enter much into consideration at present with its non-standard reconstruction filters and HDAM distortion issues. Amir’s future measurements at ASR over the coming months of the new generation of Marantz AVR’s and AVP’s will reveal if this situation has changed.

As with the power amplifiers, if only the X8500H or X6700H have enough preamp channels to meet requirements then they are the obvious choice. These two units provide the best measured preamp performance as well, so there is no compromise.

The measurements of upper level Denon AVR’s in ASR have provided some amazingly good news for a wide variety of potential AVP and AVR purchasers.

I was under the assumption that It was either all amps on or no amps on with pre-amp mode on the 8500h and not channel by channel