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Choosing between the Denon X8500H, X6700H, X4700H and X3700H (Updated)

peng

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peng, you have a beautiful room and system! Very nice indeed!

Sorry, forgot to mention it was the dealer's. I took the pictures because I want to remind myself even in such a large room driving such large speakers to near reference level, it wouldn't necessarily need more than 200 W for the peaks. It was playing some classical orchestral music that had good dynamics. When switched to some jazz music, the average went up a bit, often hitting the 12 W mark, but then the peaks were well below 120 W. And yes, those were real analog watt-meters, not just VU meters and they do indicate instantaneous peaks.
 

JonfromCB

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Thanks, I took a look and found that it has slightly higher THD+N than the AVR-X4700H. I think the Emo amp would help if the user needs the extra juice. For me, it doesn't matter how powerful my amps are, I really only need 0.5 W most of the time with peaks to may be 50 W. So my 225 W amp just sit there like idling most of the time.

Not a lot of home audio applications need a lot of juice, its the short burst/peaks that needs it though. Still for a lot of people, the 100 to 120 WPC AVRs could be sufficient. And of course, big towers with low impedance, higher phase angles are the important things to consider when figuring out if an external high power amp is needed.

Here are photos I took (had to wait a long time for the peaks), when a pair of Mc1.2kW were driving the original Blades, it never peak higher than 120 W approx.[/QUOTE]


Thanks Peng, I'd like to get your opinion on which Denon to run with a 5 channel amp? I don't need an 8K HDMI/video card so I'm considering the X3600H and X4500H along with the X3700h, and X4700H.

While I totally understand your remarks on THD+N and unused watts sitting idle with an external amp, there's a lot to gain sonically from the response, damping factor and headroom an external amp can offer, especially with an amp that can serve up the first couple of watts with extremely low distortion. The Emo' Gen 3's do that extremely well and extremely cheap. Given my plan, and AVR options, which will feed the cleanest most desirable signal to a power amp? My wife rolls her eyes when I say this, but it doesn't matter if I'm talking to a mechanic, lawyer, or undertaker; I ask the same question....What would you do? lol Thanks
 

peng

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Thanks Peng, I'd like to get your opinion on which Denon to run with a 5 channel amp? I don't need an 8K HDMI/video card so I'm considering the X3600H and X4500H along with the X3700h, and X4700H.

While I totally understand your remarks on THD+N and unused watts sitting idle with an external amp, there's a lot to gain sonically from the response, damping factor and headroom an external amp can offer, especially with an amp that can serve up the first couple of watts with extremely low distortion. The Emo' Gen 3's do that extremely well and extremely cheap. Given my plan, and AVR options, which will feed the cleanest most desirable signal to a power amp? My wife rolls her eyes when I say this, but it doesn't matter if I'm talking to a mechanic, lawyer, or undertaker; I ask the same question....What would you do? lol Thanks

If you need preamp mode, then you choice should be the 3700/4700. You are right about the headroom room, and I mentioned too, that it is the peaks in music that makes it important to have high power amps. So the first step is to figure out how much "power" (hate that term, but..) you need. There are lots of calculator, I prefer my own spreadsheet based one because it covers more conditions, but the one linked below is good enough.

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

If the calculator shows you need 100 W to get 105 dB peak from you mmp, then 300 W is not going to do anything for you. 200 W will get you 3 dB extra headroom that you may never need, unless you listen to 108 dB peaks. And by the way, don't you find 105 dB peak, i.e. reference level too loud, I can even stand 95 dB peak or 75 dB average. So if 95 dB peak is what you need, then even with the calculator say you need 100 W for ref level, you will have at least 10 dB headroom if your need is 10 dB below reference level.

If you look at the 4700's distortions/noise vs power output curve, the Emo amp does not do better. Do a comparison side by side you will see. The Denon does very well in the first couple of watts. Also, yes the first watt, or even the first 0.1 Watt is very important but imo it is highly overrated. Think about is, if your amp is outputting 0.25 W, you are probably getting less than 75 dB spl from 10 ft, then even if THD+N is only -75 dB (that is 75 dB SINAD), the distortions would be at or before 0 dB, would it still bother you, I doubt it. You can ask Amir and I am sure he wll agree, under this condition. Yes, he will tell you 115-120 dB SINAD is needed, but that's under a whole different condition that you may not be subjected to. Damping factor is no longer an issue for most amps any more, that's just another overrated myth. Even Crown audio don't talk much about it any more, that they used to..
 

Bello

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Thanks, I took a look and found that it has slightly higher THD+N than the AVR-X4700H. I think the Emo amp would help if the user needs the extra juice. For me, it doesn't matter how powerful my amps are, I really only need 0.5 W most of the time with peaks to may be 50 W. So my 225 W amp just sit there like idling most of the time.

Not a lot of home audio applications need a lot of juice, its the short burst/peaks that needs it though. Still for a lot of people, the 100 to 120 WPC AVRs could be sufficient. And of course, big towers with low impedance, higher phase angles are the important things to consider when figuring out if an external high power amp is needed.

Here are photos I took (had to wait a long time for the peaks), when a pair of Mc1.2kW were driving the original Blades, it never peak higher than 120 W approx.

Peng, Jon-

The only way to solve this technical / sound dilemma. Jon- purchase a full powered Emo module (s) (custom configure it to your likings 2-7 channels ) setup. You can test drive the Emotiva for 30 days money back guaranteed, no questions asked. But before you take that leap. Contact Emotiva directly. If you PM me, I'll give you my contact. The GM of Emotiva whom has factual technical data for you to digest. After, if you feel confident enough w/ the purchase. You can test drive the hell out of the amp, as you wish low med high db's. Depending on your music / and or movie selection. If you listen to Mozart, piano concerto's, classical music as such. Peng may have a point. My taste is all that +++ more. Full spectrum of music from the 60's 70's 80's 90's? Even a hand full of up coming artist, come across Emo impeccably. As you may know, sound is also dependent on your speaker selection. Beginning with your front stage LCR setup. Most of the audio EE on this forum are very technical / knowledgeable., great!
But, if I was to take a calculated guess, of the majority asking questions on this forum as myself. Most w/ out 100K $ test equipment in there spare room. 7,8,9 out 10 owners? Are not EE audiophiles. Mostly, audio enthusiast which have a history of owning decent to higher end audio equipment.

For those interested in understanding the difference. Well studied audiophiles vs enthusiast, all in a nut shell. These audiophile scholars make sense of it all....................................................:cool:

https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/16ql44/_/c7ypaf2
 

peng

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Peng, Jon-

The only way to solve this technical / sound dilemma. Jon- purchase a full powered Emo module (s) (custom configure it to your likings 2-7 channels ) setup. You can test drive the Emotiva for 30 days money back guaranteed, no questions asked. But before you take that leap. Contact Emotiva directly. If you PM me, I'll give you my contact. The GM of Emotiva whom has factual technical data for you to digest. After, if you feel confident enough w/ the purchase. You can test drive the hell out of the amp, as you wish low med high db's. Depending on your music / and or movie selection. If you listen to Mozart, piano concerto's, classical music as such. Peng may have a point. My taste is all that +++ more. Full spectrum of music from the 60's 70's 80's 90's? Even a hand full of up coming artist, come across Emo impeccably. As you may know, sound is also dependent on your speaker selection. Beginning with your front stage LCR setup. Most of the audio EE on this forum are very technical / knowledgeable., great!
But, if I was to take a calculated guess, of the majority asking questions on this forum as myself. Most w/ out 100K $ test equipment in there spare room. 7,8,9 out 10 owners? Are not EE audiophiles. Mostly, audio enthusiast which have a history of owning decent to higher end audio equipment.

For those interested in understanding the difference. Well studied audiophiles vs enthusiast, all in a nut shell. These audiophile scholars make sense of it all....................................................:cool:

https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/16ql44/_/c7ypaf2

Right, I do like the 30 days thing, but I have more amps than I need already so it won't benefit me. In fact, I plan on downsizing my 2 channel systems from the 300/500 W Bryston and 250/400W Halo A21 to potentially a Benchmark AHB2 because my amps typically works in the 0.2 to 0.5 W range, peaking to 25 to 50 W at the most. My Focal 1028 Be and KEF R900 towers specs say 40-300 W and 20-250 W respectively so they are getting what they need. By the way, are you an EE, good to know there are more on this forum who post often, being one myself. I don't doubt lots of hifi hobbyists are highly technical and knowledgeable that a lot of EEs, and vice versa..:)

Many people just don't need as much power as you do.
 

Bello

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Right, I do like the 30 days thing, but I have more amps than I need already so it won't benefit me. In fact, I plan on downsizing my 2 channel systems from the 300/500 W Bryston and 250/400W Halo A21 to potentially a Benchmark AHB2 because my amps typically works in the 0.2 to 0.5 W range, peaking to 25 to 50 W at the most. My Focal 1028 Be and KEF R900 towers specs say 40-300 W and 20-250 W respectively so they are getting what they need. By the way, are you an EE, good to know there are more on this forum who post often, being one myself. I don't doubt lots of hifi hobbyists are highly technical and knowledgeable that a lot of EEs, and vice versa..:)

Many people just don't need as much power as you do.

I get the same comment when I speak to people that own a Prius :facepalm:
 

JonfromCB

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If you need preamp mode, then you choice should be the 3700/4700. You are right about the headroom room, and I mentioned too, that it is the peaks in music that makes it important to have high power amps. So the first step is to figure out how much "power" (hate that term, but..) you need. There are lots of calculator, I prefer my own spreadsheet based one because it covers more conditions, but the one linked below is good enough.

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

If the calculator shows you need 100 W to get 105 dB peak from you mmp, then 300 W is not going to do anything for you. 200 W will get you 3 dB extra headroom that you may never need, unless you listen to 108 dB peaks. And by the way, don't you find 105 dB peak, i.e. reference level too loud, I can even stand 95 dB peak or 75 dB average. So if 95 dB peak is what you need, then even with the calculator say you need 100 W for ref level, you will have at least 10 dB headroom if your need is 10 dB below reference level.

If you look at the 4700's distortions/noise vs power output curve, the Emo amp does not do better. Do a comparison side by side you will see. The Denon does very well in the first couple of watts. Also, yes the first watt, or even the first 0.1 Watt is very important but imo it is highly overrated. Think about is, if your amp is outputting 0.25 W, you are probably getting less than 75 dB spl from 10 ft, then even if THD+N is only -75 dB (that is 75 dB SINAD), the distortions would be at or before 0 dB, would it still bother you, I doubt it. You can ask Amir and I am sure he wll agree, under this condition. Yes, he will tell you 115-120 dB SINAD is needed, but that's under a whole different condition that you may not be subjected to. Damping factor is no longer an issue for most amps any more, that's just another overrated myth. Even Crown audio don't talk much about it any more, that they used to..

So, if I'm reading into your reply correctly....and assuming no need/benefit from a power amp. Would I be correct to assume you'd go with the
X4500H over the X4700H based on the heat the 4700H generates? Or, is it safe to assume last year's model (4500H) runs cooler than the
4700H? FWIW, I'm running 4 ohm, 92db efficient LCRs and agree that I rarely ever listen above 80-85db and really want to make my AVR selection.
Your thoughts/selection between the 4500 or 4700 please? Thanks
 
Last edited:

Scubaduderon

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If you need preamp mode, then you choice should be the 3700/4700. You are right about the headroom room, and I mentioned too, that it is the peaks in music that makes it important to have high power amps. So the first step is to figure out how much "power" (hate that term, but..) you need. There are lots of calculator, I prefer my own spreadsheet based one because it covers more conditions, but the one linked below is good enough.

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

If the calculator shows you need 100 W to get 105 dB peak from you mmp, then 300 W is not going to do anything for you. 200 W will get you 3 dB extra headroom that you may never need, unless you listen to 108 dB peaks. And by the way, don't you find 105 dB peak, i.e. reference level too loud, I can even stand 95 dB peak or 75 dB average. So if 95 dB peak is what you need, then even with the calculator say you need 100 W for ref level, you will have at least 10 dB headroom if your need is 10 dB below reference level.

If you look at the 4700's distortions/noise vs power output curve, the Emo amp does not do better. Do a comparison side by side you will see. The Denon does very well in the first couple of watts. Also, yes the first watt, or even the first 0.1 Watt is very important but imo it is highly overrated. Think about is, if your amp is outputting 0.25 W, you are probably getting less than 75 dB spl from 10 ft, then even if THD+N is only -75 dB (that is 75 dB SINAD), the distortions would be at or before 0 dB, would it still bother you, I doubt it. You can ask Amir and I am sure he wll agree, under this condition. Yes, he will tell you 115-120 dB SINAD is needed, but that's under a whole different condition that you may not be subjected to. Damping factor is no longer an issue for most amps any more, that's just another overrated myth. Even Crown audio don't talk much about it any more, that they used to..

Somehow I do not think that calculator works for my Martin Logans...
 

Bello

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So, if I'm reading into your reply correctly....and assuming no need/benefit from a power amp. Would I be correct to assume you'd go with the
X4500H over the X4700H based on the heat the 4700H generates? Or, is it safe to assume last year's model (4500H) runs cooler than the
4700H? Your thoughts again please. Thanks


Jon- The pic below should answer your question regarding x4500h. Shiny brass metal plated bridged bracket :facepalm:

Just checked 3600, 3700, 4700 they all have it. Depending on the output power 4700 to 3600 having the least of the three will generate less heat.


1601221542229.png
 

JonfromCB

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Thanks Bello, Let's forget about output power for a minute. Speaking strictly to cleanest output with lowest distortion, is any one of these ( 3600, 3700, 4500, or 4700) mentioned better? Looks to me like the 4500 and 4700 are nearly identical with the exception of the 4700 having the upgraded HDMI/8k card. Is that correct? Thanks
 
OP
B

bigguyca

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If you need preamp mode, then you choice should be the 3700/4700. You are right about the headroom room, and I mentioned too, that it is the peaks in music that makes it important to have high power amps. So the first step is to figure out how much "power" (hate that term, but..) you need. There are lots of calculator, I prefer my own spreadsheet based one because it covers more conditions, but the one linked below is good enough.

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

If the calculator shows you need 100 W to get 105 dB peak from you mmp, then 300 W is not going to do anything for you. 200 W will get you 3 dB extra headroom that you may never need, unless you listen to 108 dB peaks. And by the way, don't you find 105 dB peak, i.e. reference level too loud, I can even stand 95 dB peak or 75 dB average. So if 95 dB peak is what you need, then even with the calculator say you need 100 W for ref level, you will have at least 10 dB headroom if your need is 10 dB below reference level.

If you look at the 4700's distortions/noise vs power output curve, the Emo amp does not do better. Do a comparison side by side you will see. The Denon does very well in the first couple of watts. Also, yes the first watt, or even the first 0.1 Watt is very important but imo it is highly overrated. Think about is, if your amp is outputting 0.25 W, you are probably getting less than 75 dB spl from 10 ft, then even if THD+N is only -75 dB (that is 75 dB SINAD), the distortions would be at or before 0 dB, would it still bother you, I doubt it. You can ask Amir and I am sure he wll agree, under this condition. Yes, he will tell you 115-120 dB SINAD is needed, but that's under a whole different condition that you may not be subjected to. Damping factor is no longer an issue for most amps any more, that's just another overrated myth. Even Crown audio don't talk much about it any more, that they used to..


A couple small points:

Item #2 in the calculator link doesn't seem correct.

What is the significance of 75dB SPL average? It seems just an arbitrary number.
 

peng

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So, if I'm reading into your reply correctly....and assuming no need/benefit from a power amp. Would I be correct to assume you'd go with the
X4500H over the X4700H based on the heat the 4700H generates? Or, is it safe to assume last year's model (4500H) runs cooler than the
4700H? FWIW, I'm running 4 ohm, 92db efficient LCRs and agree that I rarely ever listen above 80-85db and really want to make my AVR selection.
Your thoughts/selection between the 4500 or 4700 please? Thanks

There are more than just 4 Ohm to consider, so would you mind telling me what you got from the calculator I linked? To keep it simply, enter 89 dB for sensitivity instead of 92 dB (to adj for the 4 Ohm impedance).

I am not sure if the 4700 would generate more heat than the 4500, the amp section is most likely the same, the 4700 has a different HDMI board for 8K so that might produce a little more heat but again I don't know. If I were to guess I would say both would generate approx the same amount of heat.

I am using a 4400 with 3 external amps to run 7.1.4 and I seem to enjoy it more than I did when I was using the Marantz AV8801, everything else were the same, but that's just my subjective feeling that is totally meaningless, except I am sure the AV8801 did not do better. So preamp mode is good, but again depending on your power needs, the 4500 without preamp mode could just be as good.

If the cost difference is less than a couple hundred dollars though, then why not go with the 4700.
 

peng

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A couple small points:

Item #2 in the calculator link doesn't seem correct.

What is the significance of 75dB SPL average? It seems just an arbitrary number.

Item#2: Well, we both know there is no such thing as "RMS power", it can exist in mathematical form, but has no meaning in terms of what people typically refer to, that is average power peak power .:D

Yes it is an arbitrary example. I picked that because if I want to watch a BR movie that has a lot of dynamics such as the Jurassic park, Star War, Hobbit series, I might occasionally crank the volume up to about -10 to -15, and I would be getting approximately (just eyeballing so I could be out by a few dB) 70 to 78 dB most of the time, except the very quiet and very loud scenes. I should probably have said so instead of using the term "average".
 
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Bello

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Jon- the Denon's website allows you to stack systems (3) spec's side by side, for all what you're investigating. You likely correct regarding 4500/4700 but check anyways...
 

peng

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Thanks Bello, Let's forget about output power for a minute. Speaking strictly to cleanest output with lowest distortion, is any one of these ( 3600, 3700, 4500, or 4700) mentioned better? Looks to me like the 4500 and 4700 are nearly identical with the exception of the 4700 having the upgraded HDMI/8k card. Is that correct? Thanks

There are a few other features that the 4700 has, like bello said, Denon website has the complete info you need.
 

Bello

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peng

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especially with an amp that can serve up the first couple of watts with extremely low distortion. The Emo' Gen 3's do that extremely well and extremely cheap.

As someone pointed out before, it is quite amazing that Denon AVR's internal amps, while not very powerful, actually measured as good as or better than some "separates". Below are the THD+N comparisons, but not exactly apples to apples because the results were from two difference benches:

Emo Gen3:

Output at 2 V output: THD+N is 0.01590%

AVR-X4700H

Output at 2 V output, that's 0.5 W into 8 Ohms: THD+N is 0.009%

For a better comparison, I would use the graphs below, one by ASR, the other Emotiva's own, according to HTHF
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...fier/emotiva-xpa-gen3-power-amplifier-review/

It turns out Stereophile has some similar measurements too, I was looking because I am not in the market for amps.:D
https://www.stereophile.com/content/emotiva-xpa-gen3-two-channel-power-amplifier-measurements


1601225797282.png


1601225825682.png
 

JonfromCB

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There are more than just 4 Ohm to consider, so would you mind telling me what you got from the calculator I linked? To keep it simply, enter 89 dB for sensitivity instead of 92 dB (to adj for the 4 Ohm impedance).

I am not sure if the 4700 would generate more heat than the 4500, the amp section is most likely the same, the 4700 has a different HDMI board for 8K so that might produce a little more heat but again I don't know. If I were to guess I would say both would generate approx the same amount of heat.

I am using a 4400 with 3 external amps to run 7.1.4 and I seem to enjoy it more than I did when I was using the Marantz AV8801, everything else were the same, but that's just my subjective feeling that is totally meaningless, except I am sure the AV8801 did not do better. So preamp mode is good, but again depending on your power needs, the 4500 without preamp mode could just be as good.

If the cost difference is less than a couple hundred dollars though, then why not go with the 4700.

Peng, Using your calculator I got just under 108 db based on assumption that a 4500 or 4700 might be making 80wpc with all 5 channels driven.
As I (we) get further into the weeds between the 4500 and 4700, as long as both have Audyssey HT32, and Bluetooth head phone capability I couldn't care less about any other wireless connections or zone capabilities the 4700 may have that the 4500 does not. Again (sorry for being so dogmatic) but it looks to me like the audio signal processing, power, and distortion levels are identical between the two. Is that correct?
 
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