Choosing between the Denon X8500H, X6700H, X4700H and X3700H (Updated)

[bigguyca]

The power differences between the X8500H, X6700H, X4700H and X3700H are about 1dB. If the requirement is for an AVR with only the internal amplifiers used, and with the number of power amplifiers that the X3700H or X4700H provide, then the lower price products provide a little cleaner power with about 1% less output. While the preamps of the X8500H and X6700H are the cleanest in the group, the good (actually a little disappointing), but not great distortion performance of the power amplifier channels is the limiting factor in the X8500H and X6700H power amplifier performance. There is little to no reason in this use case of 100% internal power amplifier channels, to choose the X6700H or X8500H unless based on features important to a specific user. This is good news. It means that there are low cost options with excellent performance.

If more power amplifier channels are required than the X3700H or X4700H provide then of course the X6700H with 11 channels, and the X8500 with 13 channels are the obvious choices.

The real advantage of the X8500H is when the preamp outputs will be used, especially if a mix of preamp outputs and internal power amplifier channels are used. The ability to disconnect the preamps from the power amplifiers on a channel-by-channel basis is a significant advantage in this case. Purchase of say a three channel power amplifier for the L/C/R channels and driving it with clean preamp outputs while still being able to use all of the good internal amplifiers, is a very cost effective, as well a very good performing solution. External power for only a few channels is clearly much more cost effective then using external power amplifiers for all channels.

For preamp-only use, the preamp outputs of the X8500H are a bit cleaner, which is nice. The X6700H is still excellent in the world of AVR’s. X3700H and X4700H are very good. Little is given up with the budget choices. It is very unfortunate that Marantz really doesn't enter much into consideration at present with its non-standard reconstruction filters and HDAM distortion issues. Amir’s future measurements at ASR over the coming months of the new generation of Marantz AVR’s and AVP’s will reveal if this situation has changed.

As with the power amplifiers, if only the X8500H or X6700H have enough preamp channels to meet requirements then they are the obvious choice. These two units provide the best measured preamp performance as well, so there is no compromise.

The measurements of upper level Denon AVR’s in ASR have provided some amazingly good news for a wide variety of potential AVP and AVR purchasers.

 

[tonydeluce]

This is great info - thank you. I am having a house built that should be completed by end of this year. I plan to do the same thing I did when I moved into my last house and bought the Denon 4802, i.e. use for a short time and then procure external amplification. Follow this up with a separate pre / pro.

In this case, I will procure the Denon AVR-X6700h and follow this up sooner or later (depending on how I like the stand alone 6700) with the 11-channel Monoprice amp. This should hold me over for a few years until a pre/pro that makes more sense comes onto the market.

It is possible the 6700 is all I need for a while (will not know until I set everything up and listen for a while) as I plan on pairing this with the upcoming 16 inch Monoprice sub (or two if needed) with 6 x Paradigm 800Fs, 1 x Paradigm 600c, and four in-ceiling Atmos height speakers as these speakers are very easy to drive.

 

[Scubaduderon]

The power differences between the X8500H, X6700H, X4700H and X3700H are about 1dB. If the requirement is for an AVR with only the internal amplifiers used, and with the number of power amplifiers that the X3700H or X4700H provide, then the lower price products provide a little cleaner power with about 1% less output. While the preamps of the X8500H and X6700H are the cleanest in the group, the good (actually a little disappointing), but not great distortion performance of the power amplifier channels is the limiting factor in the X8500H and X6700H power amplifier performance. There is little to no reason in this use case of 100% internal power amplifier channels, to choose the X6700H or X8500H unless based on features important to a specific user. This is good news. It means that there are low cost options with excellent performance.

If more power amplifier channels are required than the X3700H or X4700H provide then of course the X6700H with 11 channels, and the X8500 with 13 channels are the obvious choices.

The real advantage of the X8500H is when the preamp outputs will be used, especially if a mix of preamp outputs and internal power amplifier channels are used. The ability to disconnect the preamps from the power amplifiers on a channel-by-channel basis is a significant advantage in this case. Purchase of say a three channel power amplifier for the L/C/R channels and driving it with clean preamp outputs while still being able to use all of the good internal amplifiers, is a very cost effective, as well a very good performing solution. External power for only a few channels is clearly much more cost effective then using external power amplifiers for all channels.

For preamp-only use, the preamp outputs of the X8500H are a bit cleaner, which is nice. The X6700H is still excellent in the world of AVR’s. X3700H and X4700H are very good. Little is given up with the budget choices. It is very unfortunate that Marantz really doesn't enter much into consideration at present with its non-standard reconstruction filters and HDAM distortion issues. Amir’s future measurements at ASR over the coming months of the new generation of Marantz AVR’s and AVP’s will reveal if this situation has changed.

As with the power amplifiers, if only the X8500H or X6700H have enough preamp channels to meet requirements then they are the obvious choice. These two units provide the best measured preamp performance as well, so there is no compromise.

The measurements of upper level Denon AVR’s in ASR have provided some amazingly good news for a wide variety of potential AVP and AVR purchasers.

It would be nice if you included the fact that for the X6700H one should look for a serial number greater than 860 to dodge the capacitor issue, right?

 

[Bello]

Update- New X6700H

I finally received my New 6700 replacement (not repaired but New!!!) due to the degraded Capacitor situation. The box came in via Fedx in good condition. Serial number (labeled twice) on the box was 300 + above the 860. My system came-up without a hitch. Ran Odyssey / soft updates prior to streaming "high quality" bit rate sound. During the audio test, I had my system sitting on top of my console, Open Air. Air temp was low 70's (cool). I ran the system @ hi-output for a solid two hours. I ONLY had the internal amps on for the initial test. Volume dialed in @ 77 - 87 depending on the music / sound power output.
And yes, I'm in need of Tylenol now ((( : +) My initial sense from playing the first few songs, I felt my Emotiva (external power amp, earlier bad cap hook-up) took this system to an all around, better fidelity level. Almost as if I added a supercharger to an already great engine, just a whole different level of sound w/ cleaner power output. Save that thought.

That said, I noticed heat emanating from the center of a large, one row 11 amp heat sink. The heat dissipated evenly, across center ~ out left / right of the heat sink. Mono block doing its job well. It was warm ~ hot but Not extremely hot at one spot ( I drove the amp very high, close to two hours) as I detected on the 4700H right side due to ribbon cable metal bracket bridge just above 2-3 power amps. I seriously do-not care for that particular design. Almost like an oven, guess Denon saved a few bucks.

As far as performance, 6700H holds it's own. In Two channel, it drove my 8 ohm Ultra SVS Towers well. I also tested it in surround 7 channel, it lost a bit of punch mid ~ low end, not as good. This was at no surprise to me as I already went through a series of sound tests from my previous (2) systems w/ the bad caps. I'll be running this setup for a few days to insure I have no issues with my internal amps. This system will serve primarily as the AVP for the most part / and future proofing my later config intentions.

When I complete my test stage, I'll hook up my external power (supercharger) Emotiva amp (full powered 7 channel) 300w x 2 channels or 275w x 7. I did hear the difference w/ sound clarity, even w/ the bad caps from my prior systems. It just takes the sound to whole higher, better listening level. Clarity, punch throughout the full sound spectrum. Cleaner, clearer sound, low to high freq crisp. I believe the Emotiva is driving a very clean pre-amp signal, way before clipping / distortion occurs. Limiting heat / noise in pre-amp mode. Hence the sound clarity at a much higher power output level. Although, the 6700H internal amps does do a good job in 2 channel. I did hear strain @ during high output on some songs / maybe over driving the pre-amp bordering past 1.4v? Peak power distortion? likely clipping. Whereas, the Emotiva went beyond a much higher output 2/3 power level, preformed with grace and fidelity. Always composed, tight sound.

As a data technologist, I do have a method to my sound design madness, lol....... It's all good and even better when listening / comparing system differences. It does take a bit of work / many hours. Thanks to the degraded cap 6700H, and work the around situation w/ 4700H during my audio tests. I've now put together the ultimate sound system w/ hand the shaking 8K Q950TS.

Just like a fully aspirated 6.3 liter engine, 500hp / add a supercharger 850hp + Think you'll hear and feel the difference?

Last but not least.

@amirm - From our previous tread. Are you still inline to test a random, correctly spec'd 6700H? I believe you were going to allot some time for a quick test update, just to keep Denon honest. I know you're always busy but please, please try to squeeze it into your schedule.

Thank you for your continued support on this matter.

 

[Bello]

Update- Day 2 - X6700H

Ambient room temp yesterday 80 degrees X6700H running @ about 120-130 degrees (internal fans remain off). As before, system setup is above console, Open Air for test purposes. I'm once again, driving the hell out of the internal amps. For starters, 6700H in Two channel with Earth, Wind & Fire. Music sounds crisp, clean @ 84 volume, yikes! The Ultra Towers are kicking @ about, likely above 135+++ watts? I believe I seen @amirm comment on one of his threads? Testing 6700H above 140W power limit? @amirm?

I could swear, and I a test to this system putting out north of 140W, clean two channel. Incredible sound +++ no subs involved. The two 8 inch drivers in each of my Ultra Towers are nothing less then incredible, sick performers!!! No other way to describe it. I'm truly a believer of the many SVS reviews, I read prior to my SVS purchase.

Initially, I purchased tested Utra Towers w/ the X4700H. I had the volume fully pegged. The Utra Towers were not driving well at the low end. At full power 125W? As I read, Ultra Towers truly "begin" to come alive above 130w +++ The 6700H in 2 channel does the job very very well, actually incredibly. If you could only believe the sound level (stand alone) above 6700H. Hence, my Emotiva full setup implementation, real stratosphere sound ++++ Performance!

A few more days of system testing, after I'll unleash the Emotiva. At which point I'll see how the pre-amp MODE will perform. I expect a great experience. As far as the capacitor issue (pre-amp stage) should have been corrected. Not sure I'll hear the sound difference. But then I've been surprised before. And BTW- the X series system HDMI cable / speed tester is another great feature of this X6700H.

 

[peng]

Update- Day 2 - X6700H

Ambient room temp yesterday 80 degrees X6700H running @ about 120-130 degrees (internal fans remain off). As before, system setup is above console, Open Air for test purposes. I'm once again, driving the hell out of the internal amps. For starters, 6700H in Two channel with Earth, Wind & Fire. Music sounds crisp, clean @ 84 volume, yikes! The Ultra Towers are kicking @ about, likely above 135+++ watts? I believe I seen @amirm comment on one of his threads? Testing 6700H above 140W power limit? @amirm?

I could swear, and I a test to this system putting out north of 140W, clean two channel. Incredible sound +++ no subs involved. The two 8 inch drivers in each of my Ultra Towers are nothing less then incredible, sick performers!!! No other way to describe it. I'm truly a believer of the many SVS reviews, I read prior to my SVS purchase.

Initially, I purchased tested Utra Towers w/ the X4700H. I had the volume fully pegged. The Utra Towers were not driving well at the low end. At full power 125W? As I read, Ultra Towers truly "begin" to come alive above 130w +++ The 6700H in 2 channel does the job very very well, actually incredibly. If you could only believe the sound level (stand alone) above 6700H. Hence, my Emotiva full setup implementation, real stratosphere sound ++++ Performance!

A few more days of system testing, after I'll unleash the Emotiva. At which point I'll see how the pre-amp MODE will perform. I expect a great experience. As far as the capacitor issue (pre-amp stage) should have been corrected. Not sure I'll hear the sound difference. But then I've been surprised before. And BTW- the X series system HDMI cable / speed tester is another great feature of this X6700H.

Congrats! Do put a fan or two on top though, now that it seems you have done enough torture test. The Ultras are not too hard to drive, but it seems at volume setting as high as 84, if you leave it there too long especially if in all channel stereo mode, and full range, you are not going to extend the life of the unit. I have to say this because you mentioned future proofing, and I hope you are not counting on the internal fans. They are likely there to safeguard early warranty claims, but not for longevity so they won't turn on until the amp is too hot for comfort.

 

[Bello]

Thanks, peng

Not sure if you've read my past posts. I'm way ahead of the game. Final location, I have dual infinity fans x2/ + controller / filtered blowing over the system, positive air pressure, remember? Inside my custom / cut / AIRPLATE T7 fan build AVR console... This Open air setup is just for testing.

As I tested the 4700H, no comparison to the power and performance of the 6700H. As I mentioned, these Ultra Towers seriously come alive above 130 +++ watts. As mentioned, somewhere in these new x system threads (6700H) Amirm was able to go beyond / above the power limit during his test. As to your comment, unless you own, tested Ultra Towers, you really won't understand. I was somewhat skeptical after reading SVS customer (many) reviews to this fact. All it took was a 4700H / 6700H side by side. Guess what? You're wrong, these Towers need power. Or you're not driving them to there full sound / potential. You'll need to trust me on that... Even when I take it to the next level, w/ Emotiva amp. Sound Performance is simply incredible, mind boggling. Two to three notches above 6700H, Incredible!!! Get my drift?

At this point, standalone 6700H, Testing (and yes, live sound bench mark torture test) Thermals, output power / system functionality before I move into my next install phase. I have all of my cabling ready for the Emotiva on the other end of my console. Along with my Yamaha (old RX 2092 amp) As I'm using Denon's (AVP) Zone 2 into my Yamaha pre-amp to support 2 channel stereo x6 sound throughout my home. Very Cool setup, works and sounds perfect for now.

In one of my post, a while ago, communications w/ Denon regarding internal system fans. These two system Fan will stay off up-until amp thermals reach a critical state. The critical state is between 160- 210 degrees Fahrenheit. My prior 6700 system, internal amp thermal test seemed hotter, root cause? capacitors? Not sure, this time around (new spec'd 6700H) internal amps seemed below frying pan hot. Open air testing / medium warm, Not too hot to the touch! As I mentioned, heat is distributed across the heat sink similarly / evenly vs the 4700H right side, extreme heat from ribbon cable metal bracket bridge.

Also- The system in a wide Open Air... i.e. top of a console. No fans are needed. The heat just goes straight up and out into the open air vs a cabinet having a low ceiling becomes a heat issue where fans are needed. Simple logic.

As far as warranty / damaging heat is concerned. I've set this system up to out last most members on this forum, beginning with me

 

[Scubaduderon]

Thanks, peng

Not sure if you've read my past posts. I'm way ahead of the game. Final location, I have dual infinity fans x2/ + controller / filtered blowing over the system, positive air pressure, remember? Inside my custom / cut / AIRPLATE T7 fan build AVR console... This Open air setup is just for testing.

As I tested the 4700H, no comparison to the power and performance of the 6700H. As I mentioned, these Ultra Towers seriously come alive above 130 +++ watts. As mentioned, somewhere in these new x system threads (6700H) Amirm was able to go beyond / above the power limit during his test. As to your comment, unless you own, tested Ultra Towers, you really won't understand. I was somewhat skeptical after reading SVS customer (many) reviews to this fact. All it took was a 4700H / 6700H side by side. Guess what? You're wrong, these Towers need power. Or you're not driving them to there full sound / potential. You'll need to trust me on that... Even when I take it to the next level, w/ Emotiva amp. Sound Performance is simply incredible, mind boggling. Two to three notches above 6700H, Incredible!!! Get my drift?

At this point, standalone 6700H, Testing (and yes, live sound bench mark torture test) Thermals, output power / system functionality before I move into my next install phase. I have all of my cabling ready for the Emotiva on the other end of my console. Along with my Yamaha (old RX 2092 amp) As I'm using Denon's (AVP) Zone 2 into my Yamaha pre-amp to support 2 channel stereo x6 sound throughout my home. Very Cool setup, works and sounds perfect for now.

In one of my post, a while ago, communications w/ Denon regarding internal system fans. These two system Fan will stay off up-until amp thermals reach a critical state. The critical state is between 160- 210 degrees Fahrenheit. My prior 6700 system, internal amp thermal test seemed hotter, root cause? capacitors? Not sure, this time around (new spec'd 6700H) internal amps seemed below frying pan hot. Open air testing / medium warm, Not too hot to the touch! As I mentioned, heat is distributed across the heat sink similarly / evenly vs the 4700H right side, extreme heat from ribbon cable metal bracket bridge.

Also- The system in a wide Open Air... i.e. top of a console. No fans are needed. The heat just goes straight up and out into the open air vs a cabinet having a low ceiling becomes a heat issue where fans are needed. Simple install 2mdedicated logic.

As far as warranty / damaging heat is concerned. I've set this system up to out last most members on this forum, beginning with me

Seems like you've got the power bug. I have it too, as I am an old scool guy who enjoys Iron fisted power amps. When I fire them up either the furnace turns off or the air on turns on, depending on the season...

 

[Bello]

Well, more like sound quality through performance. After months of listening to internal external amperage w/ the 4700H / 6700H. I've come to an acoustical conclusion that over driving the pre-amp into post internal amps lacks a bit in performance clarity vs Emotiva external output amp. I've configured my sound system to perform off the charts, not just in power but fidelity and performance. All you need is a clean low volt pre-amp signal ( Lets say 1.1v not 1.4v -1.6v clip) and than you throw a Super Charged amp. Fully, and Independently - powered, cool running, high amp'd channels. Emotiva sitting waiting for a signal to drive it out of the park. I've heard the 6700H strain a bit at mid to peak DB's. What might be happening, pre-amp at some point, certain power points, peaks, distorts the output signal - @ the post amp stage output. The Emotiva yawns throughout the power curve, cleanly and firmly. Throughout the full frequency spectrum. I believe the point is not to over drive the pre-amp signal to attain a higher op-amp output. Have the external amp do the heavy lifting. Keeping the pre amp stage at bay. No other way I could explain it. I'm certain someone other then myself has a better, more technical explanation.

Another external amp example. Flash back, growing up, my father had an old chevy w/ AC Delco am/ fm radio. Sound was horrible. When I was able to drive, I added two sets of higher end speakers and I externally wired in a Radio Shack 80w car amp / equalizer combo. The AC Delco radio was now a shining star, pumping out great sound! Now imagine, I very clean AVR pre-amp signal through a high output amp? As I said before, beyond incredible sound. Past few months during COVID, I have enjoyed / along with my neighbors (no complaints yet) the pure direct acoustics of it all. And action Movies / surround sound send you jumping out of your couch No power processor shell games (as I call it) where the Denon processor tries to figure out where to divide 140 watts of power to the channels in need. The Emotiva has full power sitting, waiting on each channel, always. No processor shell games here. End result, amazing!

 

[Scubaduderon]

Well, more like sound quality through performance. After months of listening to internal external amperage w/ the 4700H / 6700H. I've come to an acoustical conclusion that over driving the pre-amp into post internal amps lacks a bit in performance clarity vs Emotiva external output amp. I've configured my sound system to perform off the charts, not just in power but fidelity and performance. All you need is a clean low volt pre-amp signal ( Lets say 1.1v not 1.4v -1.6v clip) and than you throw a Super Charged amp. Fully, and Independently - powered, cool running, high amp'd channels. Emotiva sitting waiting for a signal to drive it out of the park. I've heard the 6700H strain a bit at mid to peak DB's. What might be happening, pre-amp at some point, certain power points, peaks, distorts the output signal - @ the post amp stage output. The Emotiva yawns throughout the power curve, cleanly and firmly. Throughout the full frequency spectrum. I believe the point is not to over drive the pre-amp signal to attain a higher op-amp output. Have the external amp do the heavy lifting. Keeping the pre amp stage at bay. No other way I could explain it. I'm certain someone other then myself has a better, more technical explanation.

Another external amp example. Flash back, growing up, my father had an old chevy w/ AC Delco am/ fm radio. Sound was horrible. When I was able to drive, I added two sets of higher end speakers and I externally wired in a Radio Shack 80w car amp / equalizer combo. The AC Delco radio was now a shining star, pumping out great sound! Now imagine, I very clean AVR pre-amp signal through a high output amp? As I said before, beyond incredible sound. Past few months during COVID, I have enjoyed / along with my neighbors (no complaints yet) the pure direct acoustics of it all. And action Movies / surround sound send you jumping out of your couch No power processor shell games (as I call it) where the Denon processor tries to figure out where to divide 140 watts of power to the channels in need. The Emotiva has full power sitting, waiting on each channel, always. No processor shell games here. End result, amazing!

Thats the thing about this hobby, which I dont fully grasp. What does the AVR do to distribute its meager supply of power, especially when it is linked to other much more capable amps while simultaneously driving its own? When you run your AVR as a preamp, you are mimicing old school stereo setups. A typical old school high powere amp has enough energy to require a 20 amp service to supply it. Imagine the control those amps have over a pair of speakers.

So here is what I hope happens: I hope that Audessy etc measures the volume of the sound signal it sends out to each channel irrespective of whether it is an on board amp or an external one and adjusts its output to normalize the volumes produced. It measures echos and reverberations at different locations to find and correct unwanted room modes. The only part I'm unsure of is how this measurement process responds to channels with speakers that have different impedances, and different gain profiles etc? The preamp on these new AVR's seem good enough for my 2 channel listening while powering my external amps, but is the power good enough to power my other 4 ohm speakers that have no outboard amps? Will the volumes be matched well enough to give a pleasing result? My 10 year old AVR with 7 140w channels barely keeps up while powering 3 channels... Are these newer amps any better, especially when considering all the additional channels in a 7.2.4 setup? I already go to -5db on my volume knob. Am I going to have to go to plus 10db with a 4700, or am I just dreaming? I guess I'm just going to have to live the test and take a shot... Or would a better bet be to go with the 6700? Or would the safest bet be to go cheap with the 3700 and bide my time until I can afford an Emotiva amp like you are describing? In the end its a crap shoot, but I prefer it to be an educated one...

 

[peng]

No other way I could explain it. I'm certain someone other then myself has a better, more technical explanation.

As others have mentioned in the past, including some highly respected experts in the field, the one other way to explain is, you knew what you were listening to when comparing... Good to be able to enjoy your AVR/Ext amp combo now with those well liked Ultra towers...... just teasing a little.

Just a side note though, in your application, if I understood right, you found the external amp making a good significant difference for you. For those who don't have external amps, they need not be concerned because it depends on their own power needs, as SVS said in their questions/answers on the Ultra towers.

The Emo amp Amir measured did not show any evidence it could out perform a Denon AVR-X4700H other than more power output. I don't think your 300 WPC model (gen 3 right?) has not been measured on any bench yet. It would be great to see one measured soon, hopefully someone would send one in as they can temporary use the AVR while waiting for the amp's return.

"Q: Is it possible for the Denon AVRX4300H to fully drive the Ultra Towers? Or how much power from a Denon receiver is needed to drive the Ultra Towers?

Answers (1)

SVS
08/23/17

A: The Denon 4300 has plenty of power for the Ultra Tower.

With that said, if you are running all 9 channels and the room is large and the playback level is high - you might want to consider an external amp for at least the front three speakers. Anywhere in the 150-300 watt range is fine for the Ultra Tower.

This can ease the load on the AVR and give it better dynamics for powering the remaining channels.

Ed M - SVS"

 

[Bello]

When I refer to Emotiva / power ready per channel. Power is mostly directed to (drivers) based on peak power delivery 200w ++ on demand. Not constant output power. Unless your sound is driving low freq (most power draw) to your drivers 100% of the time which is highly unlikely. As far as power drawing, I believe (note in specs below) you'll never go beyond 20 amp service. In fact, I have 15 amp service. I have never run into a problem. Once again, most of my experience as far as power is concerned is all based on Power-on-Demand, Power ready per channel. Not constant power output!!! Most would think, ahh I don't need all that power. Well, now-a-Days where you have an AVR, marketing w/ RMS % power ratings i,e, As in X6700H 140w x2 Denon guaranties 70% of power x7? How? All channels? smoking mirrors (Lets see the white papers) This doesn't cut it for me as far as sound reproduction... Then you have a internal processor / software controlled power distribution. I'm certain, we not getting the full story on power distribution 70% + delay? milliseconds? Power Lag delivery? What I do know, as I laid out my system. I could always guarantee 100% power delivery 100% of the time. No lag, no re-direction-of-processed power, NEVER 70% 140w. Most of all, Emotiva has little to no THD<0.1% across the full power band! If anyone would think for a moment that the (stratosphere) spec's below doesn't make a difference, you're fooling yourself. Plus Emotiva RUNs COOL!!! Mono Block +++

As mentioned before, 6700H holds its own in many ways (+++++) in 2 channel sound / power. If beyond 2 channel, lack luster (shell) processor power game. I believe most music enthusiast are 2 channel for the most part. Movies are secondary to my setup which performs beyond my expectations. The hell with movie theaters, no more crowds / sticky shoes and I could enjoy a multitude of food and drinks win win win. I feel like Trump! WOW

Hands down the better of the two systems as tested for several months. In your case, I would make the initial investment. Later down the road, add an external amp to take your system beyond your expectations.

Audio Specifications
The XPA-7 Gen3 features seven of our High-Powered Single Channel Modules.

Audio Specifications (Seven High-Powered Single Channel Modules):

• Power Output: 300 watts RMS/channel; 20 Hz – 20 kHz; THD<0.1%; 8 Ohms; one channel driven.
  550 watts RMS/channel; 20 Hz – 20 kHz; THD<0.2%; 4 Ohms; one channel driven.
  300 watts RMS/channel; THD<0.1%; 8 Ohms; two channels driven.
  490 watts RMS/channel; THD<0.1%; 4 Ohms; two channels driven.
  200 watts RMS/channel; THD<0.1%; 8 Ohms; ALL SEVEN channels driven.
• Power Bandwidth (at rated power; 8 Ohm load): 20 Hz to 20 kHz (+ / – 0.1 dB).
• Broad Band Frequency Response: 5 Hz to 80 kHz +0/-2 dB.
• THD + noise: < 0.005%; at 100 watts RMS; 1 kHz; 8 Ohms.
• Signal to Noise Ratio (8 Ohm load): > 117 dB; ref FTC rated power; unbalanced input (A-weighted). > 91 dB; ref 1 watt; unbalanced input (A-weighted).
• Minimum Recommended Load Impedance (per channel): 4 Ohms (which equals one 4 Ohm load or two paralleled 8 Ohm loads).
• Damping Factor (8 Ohm load): > 500.
• Input Sensitivity (for rated power; 8 Ohm load): 1.5 V.
• Gain: 29 dB.
• Maximum Power Consumption: 2,600 watts.
  Note: The values shown refer to the amount of power the amplifier would
  consume while playing test tones continuously, on all channels, at full power, into a load bank. Therefore they are not at all characteristic of what you would expect when playing music or the sound track from a movie. Normal audio signals are dynamic, so the amount of power they require from second to second varies widely, and the average is far lower than this. With normal content, even playing very loudly, one of our amplifiers will consume far less power than indicated in the chart, so these values should not be considered to be a circuit requirement for normal operation.
• Input Impedance:
  33 kOhms (balanced).
  23.5 kOhms (unbalanced).

Good Luck!

 

[Bello]

As others have mentioned in the past, including some highly respected experts in the field, the one other way to explain is, you knew what you were listening to when comparing... Good to be able to enjoy your AVR/Ext amp combo now with those well liked Ultra towers...... just teasing a little.

Just a side note though, in your application, if I understood right, you found the external amp making a good significant difference for you. For those who don't have external amps, they need not be concerned because it depends on their own power needs, as SVS said in their questions/answers on the Ultra towers.

The Emo amp Amir measured did not show any evidence it could out perform a Denon AVR-X4700H other than more power output. I don't think your 300 WPC model (gen 3 right?) has not been measured on any bench yet. It would be great to see one measured soon, hopefully someone would send one in as they can temporary use the AVR while waiting for the amp's return.

Peng- why not include customer reviews as to there experience "Utra Tower beyond 125w" based on real life experience. I read several SVS reviews which stated this power fact. Also- Emo GEN-3 "full powered modules" based on factual spec's will even blow away the 8500H. I wouldn't even consider or categorize the 4700H claim that you made.

Your attachment / statement, as to SVS pure "marketing" comment would not want to lose customers for this added fact. Prior to my purchase, I did ask many questions to there great sales / SVS support team. As I asked this very question, support did make this power claim over the phone. And from more then one SVS support person (multiple) I spoke to throughout my research. It's a fact!

As I tested this myself / fell into it by accident. Just after Amir discovered problems w/ 4700 then 6700H. There was No question, it was clear-cut as to the sound range of the Ultra towers beyond 125w - 2 channel "peak / power-on-demand". The peak power the Towers require might even be higher. As the 4700H must peak (not constant) beyond 125W as does the 6700H peak beyond 140W. Some professional reviewers stated "no need for a sub with these speakers" And its true!!! Yikes, You have No idea! My SVS 2000 PRO, I always shut it down in 2 channel play.

4700H, based on my performance test was just, ok. The 6700H did accomplish the SVS full spectrum feat in 2 channel, as tested. Great sound reproduction w/ sweet spot peak power-on-demand in 2 channel 6700H. It certainly came ALIVE, Towers preformed in all it's glory. The 6700H is a great clean power driver / AVR system.

My ears hear it all, loud and clear

 

[Bello]

Update - Day 4 - x6700H

I'm still at awe with the full sound spectrum, clean performance (6700H / Ultra Towers) in 2 channel play "no subs needed at all" I own PB 2000 Pro's awesome subs! Will only be used for movies for now. In 2 channel, I've been streaming (Spotify High Quality - bit rate) 95% of song acoustics sound great!!! Also- for those who hear music disparities, too many high's / low freq from song to song. Just adjust the tone ~db level w/ the remote option button. You could make this adjustment once music play begins, displayed / or paused. Works great!

As far as "Open Air" heat performance, very good! The system amps are wired correctly as far as amp / area location across heat sink +++ Right / Left channels are wired "center" outward of the heat sink (most amp wattage / heat) Very good implementation. I observed in 2 channel high output 2 hours. Heat dissipation, most of the heat is correctly centered, dissipating out ~ left ~ right evenly. Remaining 8 channels, lower output amps located toward the ends of the heat sink, Surround back / front, height 1, 2. At each end of the heat sink, perfectly designed! Open Air this system, top console. The 6700H will last forever w/ out fans. If confined in cabinet, or closet you'll obsoletely need air movement (fans) at the top of the system face from the back towards the front out. Not to push air bottom up or down. Pushing air directly through the system will run into a host of future problems. Trust me on this, I've implemented systems costing a mire 50K to multi billion $ data centers. Across the U.S and abroad. Actually, we might be streaming data through systems I designed and implemented

Petabyte streaming SAN's is coming down the tracks like a freight train, 8K........ Stay tuned!

It's all good, enjoy!

 

[JonfromCB]

For Peng per comment in post 11. Emo' review with bench test added.... https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...fier/emotiva-xpa-gen3-power-amplifier-review/

Bello, It appears you didn't run the 4700 in pre out only mode with the Emotiva. Is that correct? I'm asking because I would like to hear first hand
how much cooler the 4700 operates with an outboard amp. Thoughts and comments? Thanks

 

[Bello]

Jon- Actually I did, I ran a series of music tests. The combo Emo / 6700H /Towers did sound very good. I was later disappointed in FULL preamp mode. The heat was unacceptable, at least to me on middle to right side w/ out the 8K GPU in use. I physically went back and forth testing 4700/6700 . And w/ infinity fans blowing across it in a large system console. After further investigation. I found the metal ribbon cable bridge over the amps, (how dumb of a design) that held down heat. Almost like a hot plate.

At first, I was puzzled w/ full preamp mode, I thought all amps were off. Boy was I wrong, as Amir quickly corrected me as he stated "full preamp mode, all the amplifiers remain at full power, really? Only difference, without the presence of a load, heat does Not ramp-up through the roof. In full Preamp mode, all amps stay at bay (kinda) with power just sitting there fat dumb happy. Some professional online reviewers had it sound like they were turned off as in the 8500H, false statement vs the 8500H can shut down / switch off amp power (preamp mode + off) for any of the 13 amps at your disposal. Great system at a very very high price point vs performance. I did my homework.

BTW- thanks for the Emotiva link above., I posted it as members had kinda trashed Emotiva when I mentioned Emo's quality performance. I'm a technical guy, I learned to fact check everything, question everyone. Even the people building these amps, also at Emotiva corp. Great set of guys, sound EE engineers in Memphis, TN . As I've stated, the Emotiva will blow your mind in low to mid into high end output power, cleanly. All with great sound and very very low THD throughout the power band. Emotiva has a 30 day money back guarantee. I was sold on day ONE during my 4700/6700 test run. As does SVS / Ultra's with a 60 day no question money back guarantee.

That said- The 6700H is not cheap, With the additional options / functionality to this system. For me it was a no brainer. You can always go for a 3600, 3700H w/ use of an Emotiva amp (at a great price point) w / mind boggling performance. And I don't mean just power band but unleashing Denon's preamp performance. With all the interconnected systems remaining cool as a cucumber ++++ as tested!

 

[JonfromCB]

Thanks Bello. So, based on your experience with the X4700H would you think heat would still be a problem if it is only used with an Emotiva?
Do you think the X3600H would run even cooler if only used with the Emotiva?

 

[Bello]

Thanks Bello. So, based on your experience with the X4700H would you think heat would still be a problem if it is only used with an Emotiva?
Do you think the X3600H would run even cooler if only used with the Emotiva?

Jon- In FULL preamp mode, you would differently limit 4700H heat expose. But keep it cool, large Open Air area will be fine. In a cabinet add fans across the top! Especially if you begin to use eARC / 8K output. As far as the 3600H, try to pull it up on the web, internal components. Zoom in on the pic and check to see if the metal bridge which powers the front display is over the amp heat sink... Also- 3600H has less power = less heat. I would think, given the smaller display (less display lines) the ribbon cable might be small enough that Denon routed the ribbon cable around, away from the amps. Minus the heat plate metal bridge.

 

[peng]

For Peng per comment in post 11. Emo' review with bench test added.... https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...fier/emotiva-xpa-gen3-power-amplifier-review/

Bello, It appears you didn't run the 4700 in pre out only mode with the Emotiva. Is that correct? I'm asking because I would like to hear first hand
how much cooler the 4700 operates with an outboard amp. Thoughts and comments? Thanks

Thanks, I took a look and found that it has slightly higher THD+N than the AVR-X4700H. I think the Emo amp would help if the user needs the extra juice. For me, it doesn't matter how powerful my amps are, I really only need 0.5 W most of the time with peaks to may be 50 W. So my 225 W amp just sit there like idling most of the time.

Not a lot of home audio applications need a lot of juice, its the short burst/peaks that needs it though. Still for a lot of people, the 100 to 120 WPC AVRs could be sufficient. And of course, big towers with low impedance, higher phase angles are the important things to consider when figuring out if an external high power amp is needed.

Here are photos I took (had to wait a long time for the peaks), when a pair of Mc1.2kW were driving the original Blades, it never peak higher than 120 W approx.

 

[Scubaduderon]

peng, you have a beautiful room and system! Very nice indeed!