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Choosing between Adam Audio T Series, Kali IN Series, JBL 3 Series, and maybe others for nearfield listening.

EdLaFave

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A little background:
  1. My budget for the monitors and DAC is around $1,000. I may spend $1,500, but as we get closer to $2,000 that becomes an increasingly difficult sell.
  2. The monitors will be in a 16x13x8 foot room. They'll be ear level because they'll sit on speaker stands attached to my 80x30 inch computer desk, which backs up to one of the walls in the room. As implied, I will be sitting within a couple feet of the monitors.
  3. Monitors will play all audio from my computer, but I'm most concerned with how playing music from my computer sounds.
  4. The second use case is how the monitors sound while playing a digital piano.
  5. I don't like to listen to loud music so even if I end up with 8 inch woofers, I won't be blasting them.
  6. I value crystal clear vocals, neutrality, a wide sound stage that feels relatively close/intimate, and imaging that allows you to precisely pin point where every sound is coming from.
  7. I'm coming up on 40 years old so I may only be able to hear up to 16kHz (at least that's what a YouTube test tells me using the awful in-display speakers I currently have).
  8. I listen to music for 8 hours Monday to Friday (interrupted only by the occasional meeting) so ear fatigue would be a real problem.

First question, how big should my monitors be?
I'm inclined to pick an 8 inch woofer. YouTube videos from AcousticsInsider, Kali, and Adam as well as other sources have led me to believe bigger is better because:
  1. Although I don't value playing loud music, I do value the deeper bass a larger woofer typically provides.
  2. A larger woofer gives you better sound, less distortion, more fidelity, and more headroom.
  3. A larger speaker cannot "overpower" a smaller room...acoustic panels may be the solution for problems smaller speakers may not reveal.
  4. I have the desk space and I don't mind the aesthetics of a larger monitor.
My current finalists are:
  1. Kali Audio's IN Series (review)
  2. Adam Audio's T Series (review)
  3. JBL's 3 Series (review)

Second question, given their similarities, which is better for my situation, Kali Audio's IN Series or JBL's 3 Series?
I'm inclined to pick the Kalis, but I'm really not sure. Digging through the reviews, it seems the following points may be relevant in picking a winner:
  1. Obectively, the frequency response graphs look very similar, but the JBL might be a bit flatter particularly from 4-10kHz? I'm not sure how this translates into a listening experience?
  2. The harmonic distortion graphs in the reviews seem to give a strong edge to the Kalis (clarity is really important to me).
  3. The front port design of the Kalis may be superior for me given that my desk is against the wall.
  4. Additionally it seems like Kali's 3-way design may be superior for vocal clarity, sound stage, and imaging?
  5. I may also be (incorrectly?) influenced by the hype/prestige that seems to surround the Kali brand relative to the JBL brand and given the way Kali was founded it seems like they "must" produce a better monitor?

Third question, which is better, Adam Audio's T Series or the winner between Kali and JBL?
There are a few things I've been going back and forth on:
  1. I'm concerned about the rear ported design of the Adams. However, in this YouTube video Adam Audio seems to acknowledge that although it is ideal to place the speaker far away from every wall, it's better to have the speaker right next to a wall as opposed to within 0.5-1.5 meters of the wall. So perhaps it isn't a big deal? Even still, the front ported design of the Kali may be ideal for my use case?
  2. A distinguishing feature of the Adam Audio T Series seems to be the Ribbon Tweeter, but I don't know how to evaluate that. I'd love better sounding highs, but I'm also a bit afraid of the elevated highs I see in Adam's frequency response graph relative to the JBLs and Kalis. I want to comfortably listen to these monitors for 8 hours a day and ear fatigue would be a deal breaker.
  3. The Adams seem to be the clear winner in terms of low bass, but the JBLs and Kalis are doing very well so I'm not sure how much this matters?
  4. Adam Audio seems to be the most prestigious brand and JBL seems to be the least prestigious brand, I'm not sure if or how that should be weighed because I'm generally inclined to trust objective measurements and fallback on subjective stuff to break ties?
  5. The Kalis seem to provide the most configuration via the dip switches on the back, but I'm not sure how much that really matters since I can always use EQ software if I want to really optimize the frequency response.
  6. It seems like Kali's 3-way design may be superior for vocal clarity, sound stage, and imaging (which are things I care a lot about), but I don't know how to quantify that when I look at all of the graphs? Additionally, I've heard the Adams do very well in these categories.

Final question, did I make a mistake by ruling out any of the monitors below or failing to consider unlisted monitors?
  1. Genelec 8030c, Neuman KH 80, Dynaudio LYD 5, and Vanatoo Transparent One Encore- I considered all of these, but my current finalists had better low end bass. Perhaps some of these speakers are so much better than my finalists that I really should have considered pairing them with a subwoofer to correct this shortcoming?
  2. KRK Rokit G4- The KRK brand seems to be poorly regarded relative to my finalists. Additionally, a lot of people seemed to say they were bass heavy and far from neutral. I'm not sure why because the objective data I saw on the G4s looked pretty good. Even still, given that I already have 3 finalists I allowed this subjective data to scare me away.
  3. Yamaha HS Series- I can't remember exactly why I ruled these out. I think the objective measurements may have been notably worse compared to the finalists I've picked.
Thanks so much!
 
Last edited:

AnalogSteph

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I do!
  1. Spend as much of your budget on speakers as you can. Real gains in driver quality, construction and response flatness are still to be had. I'd much rather be seeing Neumann KH120s on a Focusrite Scarlett Solo than Kali LP6v2s on an RME ADI-2 DAC FS (although neither option would be bad, strictly speaking).
  2. Has some basic room treatment already been applied? Budget for that if needed.
  3. Being able to measure and EQ accordingly tends to come in handy. Budget for that, too. (If you'd like some more choice than just UMIK-1 and UMM-6, going for an audio interface instead of a DAC may be the more sensible option. I quite like my Sonarworks mic.)
  4. If you are not a very loud listener (can relate - generally low-mid 60s dB SPL last time I checked), you may be surprised by how little you can get away with in terms of output capability. In the office I'm wrestling some 3" class monitors (EVE SC203) into shape with judicious amounts of EQ, which gives enough bass quantity and depth for the admittedly not particularly bass-heavy genres I listen to, and things still go plenty loud enough. Given your dual use scenario, a setup that needs large amounts of EQ may be impractical though.
  5. What you may need to watch out for instead is hiss levels. This'll somewhat depend on what your exact listening distance is - "a couple feet" on a desk could be anywhere from 2' (0.6 m) to 4' (1.2 m). You'll generally be fine with the current Kalis, the smaller Mackies, the KRK RP5 G4 (not so much the larger models) and anything Neumann, 5" ADAM and Genelec models should be OK but no longer dead-silent. (The smaller Genelecs then remain fairly similar I think, which gets progressively more annoying as typical listening distance reduces.)
  6. Listening distance will also affect the kind of directivity you want and how much driver spacing in a 2-way you can tolerate. (The lower limit for an 8" is about 0.8 m, but an ADAM T8V or JBL 308P will fail to integrate properly before a Yamaha HS8 does. Likewise, you can get closer to a KRK RP5 G4 than an ADAM T5V.)
  7. Instead of going for the deepest native bass extension, consider a 2.1 setup with a studio sub... several of the more affordable choices (I'm thinking $400-ish) are quite flexible enough to be combined with other manufacturers' monitors as well.
  8. Maybe have an eye on the (idle) power consumption of the whole shebang, too. My K+Hs at home at 11 W each make up almost 1/3 of total PC setup power consumption these days - the PC I built a year ago generally draws sub-20 W with a bit of optimization (and about 14.5 W idle). The little EVEs in the office barely get lukewarm at the back, so I doubt it's more than a few watts total for them (there is no idle power spec, and I haven't actually bothered to measure it yet). Most modern things with Class D amps of modest power tend to be fairly economical, actually (e.g. Genelec 8020D/8030C are real power misers at 3 W each).
 

stevenswall

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A little background:
  1. My budget for the monitors and DAC is around $1,000. I may spend $1,500, but as we get closer to $2,000 that becomes an increasingly difficult sell.
  2. The monitors will be in a 16x13x8 foot room. They'll be ear level because they'll sit on speaker stands attached to my 80x30 inch computer desk, which backs up to one of the walls in the room. As implied, I will be sitting within a couple feet of the monitors.
  3. Monitors will play all audio from my computer, but I'm most concerned with how playing music from my computer sounds.
  4. The second use case is how the monitors sound while playing a digital piano.
  5. I don't like to listen to loud music so even if I end up with 8 inch woofers, I won't be blasting them.
  6. I value crystal clear vocals, neutrality, a wide sound stage that feels relatively close/intimate, and imaging that allows you to precisely pin point where every sound is coming from.
  7. I'm coming up on 40 years old so I may only be able to hear up to 16kHz (at least that's what a YouTube test tells me using the awful in-display speakers I currently have).
  8. I listen to music for 8 hours Monday to Friday (interrupted only by the occasional meeting) so ear fatigue would be a real problem.

First question, how big should my monitors be?
I'm inclined to pick an 8 inch woofer. YouTube videos from AcousticsInsider, Kali, and Adam as well as other sources have led me to believe bigger is better because:
  1. Although I don't value playing loud music, I do value the deeper bass a larger woofer typically provides.
  2. A larger woofer gives you better sound, less distortion, more fidelity, and more headroom.
  3. A larger speaker cannot "overpower" a smaller room...acoustic panels may be the solution for problems smaller speakers may not reveal.
  4. I have the desk space and I don't mind the aesthetics of a larger monitor.
My current finalists are:
  1. Kali Audio's IN Series (review)
  2. Adam Audio's T Series (review)
  3. JBL's 3 Series (review)

Second question, given their similarities, which is better for my situation, Kali Audio's IN Series or JBL's 3 Series?
I'm inclined to pick the Kalis, but I'm really not sure. Digging through the reviews, it seems the following points may be relevant in picking a winner:
  1. Obectively, the frequency response graphs look very similar, but the JBL might be a bit flatter particularly from 4-10kHz? I'm not sure how this translates into a listening experience?
  2. The harmonic distortion graphs in the reviews seem to give a strong edge to the Kalis (clarity is really important to me).
  3. The front port design of the Kalis may be superior for me given that my desk is against the wall.
  4. Additionally it seems like Kali's 3-way design may be superior for vocal clarity, sound stage, and imaging?
  5. I may also be (incorrectly?) influenced by the hype/prestige that seems to surround the Kali brand relative to the JBL brand and given the way Kali was founded it seems like they "must" produce a better monitor?

Third question, which is better, Adam Audio's T Series or the winner between Kali and JBL?
There are a few things I've been going back and forth on:
  1. I'm concerned about the rear ported design of the Adams. However, in this YouTube video Adam Audio seems to acknowledge that although it is ideal to place the speaker far away from every wall, it's better to have the speaker right next to a wall as opposed to within 0.5-1.5 meters of the wall. So perhaps it isn't a big deal? Even still, the front ported design of the Kali may be ideal for my use case?
  2. A distinguishing feature of the Adam Audio T Series seems to be the Ribbon Tweeter, but I don't know how to evaluate that. I'd love better sounding highs, but I'm also a bit afraid of the elevated highs I see in Adam's frequency response graph relative to the JBLs and Kalis. I want to comfortably listen to these monitors for 8 hours a day and ear fatigue would be a deal breaker.
  3. The Adams seem to be the clear winner in terms of low bass, but the JBLs and Kalis are doing very well so I'm not sure how much this matters?
  4. Adam Audio seems to be the most prestigious brand and JBL seems to be the least prestigious brand, I'm not sure if or how that should be weighed because I'm generally inclined to trust objective measurements and fallback on subjective stuff to break ties?
  5. The Kalis seem to provide the most configuration via the dip switches on the back, but I'm not sure how much that really matters since I can always use EQ software if I want to really optimize the frequency response.
  6. It seems like Kali's 3-way design may be superior for vocal clarity, sound stage, and imaging (which are things I care a lot about), but I don't know how to quantify that when I look at all of the graphs? Additionally, I've heard the Adams do very well in these categories.

Final question, did I make a mistake by ruling out any of the monitors below or failing to consider unlisted monitors?
  1. Genelec 8030c, Neuman KH 80, Dynaudio LYD 5, and Vanatoo Transparent One Encore- I considered all of these, but my current finalists had better low end bass. Perhaps some of these speakers are so much better than my finalists that I really should have considered pairing them with a subwoofer to correct this shortcoming?
  2. KRK Rokit G4- The KRK brand seems to be poorly regarded relative to my finalists. Additionally, a lot of people seemed to say they were bass heavy and far from neutral. I'm not sure why because the objective data I saw on the G4s looked pretty good. Even still, given that I already have 3 finalists I allowed this subjective data to scare me away.
  3. Yamaha HS Series- I can't remember exactly why I ruled these out. I think the objective measurements may have been notably worse compared to the finalists I've picked.
Thanks so much!

Question 1:
-Yes, the larger the monitor the better. You can tame any peaks that arise from speakers with extra bass extension.
-Movies with an Adam T5V, JBL LSR308, and Kali IN-8. I'd choose the IN-8 hands down. Maybe a large Adam would be better for lower distortion in Lord of the Rings, but the IN-8 v2 seems the most transparent and is either handling the power better or more gracefully limiting itself, and the LSR308 has a small amount of hiss I don't like. I swear there is treble distortion quicker on the Adam and I think the 5 and 8 use the same tweeter.
-I've listened to music with all three though in different rooms so take that for what it's worth. The coaxial driver on the IN-8 makes a difference and I like that when I stand or am listening from a distance (sometimes I also do yoga in the living room, or sit on the floor with cousins and nephews to play Mario Kart.) Neither of the other speakers sound as good when I'm off axis vertically.

Question 2:
-Yes, there is some hype around Kali. JBL is an older company and sells many far more expensive models. While there is hype, I've yet to see JBL introduce something close to the value of the IN-8. JBL only uses their coaxial drivers on low end $100 speakers that don't sound that great, and they lack coaxial drivers on their high end stuff which leads to worse vertical reflections that don't sound the same.
-In a perfect room where you aren't worrying about reflections or SPL and cut the bass to 60hz or so, all of these will sound good and fairly accurate. The problem is that most people don't have a treated room, aren't always on axis, and if you're using them on a desk you're dealing with those reflections, and if you sit further away you are dealing with ceiling and floor reflections. The Kali's have some basic DSP to help with these issues, plus the coaxial driver that also helps with vertical reflections sounding more similar. You'll also notice that the Kali has an actual engineered port with more advanced geometry. To me they deserve to be on a level above other speakers because the additional thought and engineering is evident in their speakers.

Question 3:
-Don't worry so much about the port location, it's mostly emanating bass frequencies that are omnidirectional and you only need it as far from the wall as the port is wide. Front vs back port isn't very important unless there is chuffing, and the Kali is designed to chuff the least.
-Yes, do follow those placement guidelines. Genelec also has those placement guidelines. You don't want bass and midbass nulls caused by a delayed bounce from the back wall nulling things, so either get rid of the delay or bring them far out enough and avoid the danger zone. Refer to this: https://www.genelec.com/monitor-placement

Final Question:
-Personally I prefer Genelec The Ones speakers to Kali but that's because I use them with GLM and they are coaxial. At this price I would go with the Kali coaxial models.
-The Neumann KH80 DSP could be a better solution if you get their DSP kit to correct things as it will be better than the simple controls on the Kali and your EQ software. However, you would be missing some bass extension and the coaxial driver if that matters to you and you think you might repurpose speakers in the future. (I went from a nearfield setup to a living room stereo setup to nearfield again with different models and finally a surround sound system. The Kali IN-5 and IN-8 have been useful in all of these situations and work as center channels as well, and don't sound terribly distracting when in the same system as a Genelec.)
-The KRK monitor with a 10" woofer should be able to do more bass than any of these if that's what you want. Haven't heard it.
-The Yamaha HS8 can be a good speaker, but the only time I've heard that one more than just in passing was in a fully treated studio with Sonarworks correction. It sounded great. Not good enough for bass checks though so the guy replaced them with Barefoot monitors.

If I were in your position I would get the IN-8s unless you're getting the Neumann's with DSP correction and their sub.

But at that point I'd really consider the Kali IN-5/8 and their sub.
 

Allank

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Okay

So... after my objective listening of the JBL's vs the Kali's, and the (if I had the budget the KH 310's were appealing but maybe not right for my room) - the bass in the Adam T series is big, but not tight.

And these reviews https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kali_in-8v2/




I ended up with the Kali IN8 v2's. (FWIW - I previously had the Yamaha HS-80m .. the Kali's were a very very major step up. )

Along with the review from Erin's Audio corner ..

I have a part time mastering business running from a room a bit smaller than yours.


1. 8" - but you'll still probably want to add a sub or 2 .. Depending on the level you need to push the SVS SB-1000 Pro is a great match for the Kali's.. It was easy to get them phase aligned and with just the dip switches on the Kali and the LPF on the SVS they integrate without a noticeable difference at the crossover.. I will be getting a second one shortly.

THe SB-2000 should be better especially if you need to go loud.. BUT - if you have 2*SB-1000, you probably won't get into the range where they start distorting.. My room creates more distortion than the speaker when pushing the levels.

Jesco is right.. GO as big as you can fit. - Use his techniques for identifying the listening position and speaker positions. I went down the route of using calculators and had it all completely wrong.

BUT ---- treat your room, whichever speaker you go with. Do it yourself, save 100's and get a much better result. If you need help on getting started DM me.. I'm putting together a how-to and need some people to test that for me. (based on soft fluffy stuff as the firm fibreglass boards are way too expensive in Australia)

Until your room is well treated, the difference from a DAC won't be too noticeable.
In my "bolt zone" room with minor treatment - there was little difference between a Focusrite Saffire Pro, A&H Zed R16 and Behringer x18... A difference, but not enough to really impact my work.

Now that I've completely overhauled the treatment, the difference between those interfaces is noticeable.. So I'm looking at a dedicated DAC for monitoring to hang off an interface... If you don't need inputs or room EQ on the device, then the offerings from Topping and SMSL will save you some $$. (the SMSL C200 is looking like a great option you can have sub(s) from the RCA's and the monitors off the XLR's)

2. In Australia there hasn't been that same hype around Kali... I've had the v2's from the moment they came out. Mine had an early firmware which had clicks produced by sub bass tones ---- they swapped out the entire amp board (via the local distributor) without too much fuss. They've been going strong for 20 months now and I've mastered 100's of songs with them.

JBL is actually very prestiguous they have been mainstays in studios since the 70's .. It's just now they play at all ends of the market. Their studio mains are still a popular option. I still think at this end of the market the Kali's are better.

3. (Which feels like 2b) .. The Kali's were my preferred option. The highs are still there. The tweeter implementation is great.. Having them slightly toed fixes the slight dip caused by the concentric design.. I had no issues with lack of bass until I added a sub, now I can't live without the sub.
If you are working in them, the clarity of the mids and highs is amazing, but not forced, they are not fatiguing, unless the mix is bad. The Yamaha HS-80's were very fatiguing.

...

4.. ish ..
Stick with more bass.. Everything you've named here is pretty good.. I don't know why though.. I've never really gelled with Genelec's.. The Dyanaudio Lyd 48's also get great reviews and are in use in some mastering rooms --- but they may be a bit underpowered for your room..

I have a pair of KRK VXT 4's. My intention is once I get my second SVS Sub, I'll make new stands and I'll happily use one of the KRK's as a mono reference speaker. They do distort a little more than the Kali's and if the bass is to pushed they let you know really quickly..
When I was primarily mixing and not mastering, I would work in these most of the time and cross check in the HS-80m's..

KRK can make great speakers, the Rokit 4's appear to have got rid of the previous gens criticism (over inflated bass with serious overhang)....I haven't heard their 3 way.. they probably aren't bad - but I'd be surprised if the bass was as good as the Kali's... The V series are definitely a little more refined.

Already mentioned the HS-80m's I had.. Don't get me wrong - I had them for over 10 years .... They were a great option when they came out, anyone who has them or the HS-80's in the right room are happy .. But they are a bit mid forward and the group delay is pretty high.. They are fussy about room and bass treatment... However, in today's market there are better options in the price range. For me the Kali's were the best option but my final word is.. if you can find a retailer that will loan them for a week.. try them all out in your room...
 

Valis

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Some really good advice and observations in this thread.

@EdLaFave you never responded to these great posts. What did you end up going with?
 
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