Cheap RCA interconnects causing interference

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Hello ASR,

I need some help in choosing some new interconnects.
My currently owned very cheap RCA cables that cost me £8 a pair from Amazon are emitting a high frequency whine *through my speakers* tweeters (sounds like tinnitus, 16khz or higher) from both my Fiio k3s and RME ADI-2 FS dac.
The severity of this noise increases as I turn the sampling rate up on windows, which is an occurrence on both dacs.
Also, using the lowest sampling rate at 44.1Khz : the interference is still audible.

I believe this is due to two reasons : The rca cables have no shielding or cheap shielding. Secondly, one of the rca cables run perpendicular to a slew of cables, including cables attached to my monitor. Moving the RCA cable closer to the monitor worsens the problem. But also, when the RCA cables are 'looped' over themselves, the severity of the whine also increases.

Note that using unbalanced headphone out on both dacs this high frequency whine is not present, thus leading me to conclude the RCA cables are at fault.

So :
Do I buy some ~£40 rca cables or do I buy some 3-pin XLR cables ?
Would the balanced XLR cables be better for preventing this interference? My Mackie mr624 support balanced 3-pin XLR, as does my new RME dac.

Further, which brand would be a good choice? I don't want to spend triple digits on the XLR cables.

Many thanks ASR,
Square!

 

[3125b]

If you have your DAC connected to a PC via USB then it has noting to do with your specific cable, it's a ground loop happening because of the unbalanced connection between two grounded devices. It would be the same with any other electrically conductive unbalanced connection.

You need balanced cables, XLR in your case. They will eliminate any issues that are caused by a ground loop and interference (although I'm kind of sceptical of the real influence of that in the first place, I've done some measurements before and even unshielded RCA is not that critical being just near an interference source). It doesn't matter wich ones as long as they work properly without any loose contacts or anything like that. Even cheap cables can be of decent quality, mine cost me 6€ from Thomann.
In wich country do you live?

 

[DVDdoug]

Just FYI - Balanced connections are more immune to electromagnetic interference AND ground loops.

 

[fieldcar]

Even cheap cables can be of decent quality, mine cost me 6€ from Thomann.

Hosa also makes nice and reliable XLR cables. I did have issues with some no-name brand (WJSTN) with bad connections.

 

[square.]

Its not a ground loop. With my fiio k3s, I had a ground loop and it was nothing like tinnitus. It was a horrible screeching and scratching that was increased in severity with mouse movement and cpu/gpu usage increasing.

I bought a iDefender+ from ifi to remove this issue, and it worked a treat. (The iDefender is designed to remove ground loops)
However, the RME dac I am presuming has a lifted ground, as I did not need to incorporate the iDefender+ into the chain and the speakers had no ground loop interference.

I am guessing its EMI and I will need XLR to prevent this problem

Thanks a lot for the replies everyone

 

[fieldcar]

Its not a ground loop. With my fiio k3s, I had a ground loop and it was nothing like tinnitus. It was a horrible screeching and scratching that was increased in severity with mouse movement and cpu/gpu usage increasing.

I bought a iDefender+ from ifi to remove this issue, and it worked a treat. (The iDefender is designed to remove ground loops)
However, the RME dac I am presuming has a lifted ground, as I did not need to incorporate the iDefender+ into the chain and the speakers had no ground loop interference.

I am guessing its EMI and I will need XLR to prevent this problem

Thanks a lot for the replies everyone

I had tons of interference from my USB wires, USB hubs, monitor, and displayport cable when I ran RCA's. Ever since I've gone balanced, I haven't had any interference issues anymore. I hope you get things resolved.

 

[antcollinet]

Its not a ground loop. With my fiio k3s, I had a ground loop and it was nothing like tinnitus. It was a horrible screeching and scratching that was increased in severity with mouse movement and cpu/gpu usage increasing.

I bought a iDefender+ from ifi to remove this issue, and it worked a treat. (The iDefender is designed to remove ground loops)
However, the RME dac I am presuming has a lifted ground, as I did not need to incorporate the iDefender+ into the chain and the speakers had no ground loop interference.

I am guessing its EMI and I will need XLR to prevent this problem

Thanks a lot for the replies everyone

Ground loops are just loop antennas that pickup EMI (It is all EMI). They don't all sound the same. They shound like the frequency of the interference they are picking up. In this case, most likely, the HF video signals going to your monitor. Though the fact that the interference changes with sampling frequency suggests that it may be originating directly in the DAC and being induced onto the ground loop.

XLR connectors may well eliminate the ground loop problem - if that is what it is (the signal is not carried on the ground). If you have the option of carrying a signal via an optical TOS link cable that will be even better.

 

[square.]

I had tons of interference from my USB wires, USB hubs, monitor, and displayport cable when I ran RCA's. Ever since I've gone balanced, I haven't had any interference issues anymore. I hope you get things resolved.

Fingers crossed!

though the fact that the interference changes with sampling frequency suggests that it may be originating directly in the DAC and being induced onto the ground loop.

I didn't test with my new dac if sampling rate changes the frequency whine, but on my fiio k3s dac 192Khz sample rate made the EMI more audible than at 44.1Khz. Between 48khz-192khz it was all the same
On 32bit, 44.1Khz on the new RME dac it was audible as it would be on 24 bit 44.1Khz on the fiio k3s.

How could it be directly in the dac if both dac's have the issue?

If you have the option of carrying a signal via an optical TOS link cable that will be even better.

Sadly not.

 

[square.]

Ok so i've just noticed something and I think its audible on this dac since it has ventilation (allowing it to leak sound) where the fiio k3s did not, thus allowing me to explain the following:

When the RME ADI 2 FS dac is on its silent (therefore the dac isn't the issue here, read on.) When the dac is plugged in via usb and is also on, it emits a high frequency whine. Unplugging dac from usb fixes this issue. (Note : the dac is powered by mains)
Therefore my computer is noisy AF.
Naturally, the amplifiers in the speakers are picking this up; where it is not audible on headphones.

My motherboard is less than 3 months old. The *oldest* part in my computer is the power supply, over 5 years old. All my other parts should be under 3 years old.
I believe I need to replace the PSU. Does this sound correct?
Furthermore, if this doesnt work, perhaps an iSilencer from iFi would work.

Thoughts and opinions are appreciated on this,
Square

 

[JayGilb]

Ok so i've just noticed something and I think its audible on this dac since it has ventilation (allowing it to leak sound) where the fiio k3s did not, thus allowing me to explain the following:

When the dac is on its silent (therefore the dac isn't the issue here, read on.) When the dac is plugged in via usb and is also on, it emits a high frequency whine. Unplugging dac from usb fixes this issue. (Note : the dac is powered by mains)
Therefore my computer is noisy AF.
Naturally, the amplifiers in the speakers are picking this up; where it is not audible on headphones.

My motherboard is less than 3 months old. The *oldest* part in my computer is the power supply, over 5 years old. All my other parts should be under 3 years old.
I believe I need to replace the PSU. Does this sound correct?
Furthermore, if this doesnt work, perhaps an i Silencer from iFi would work.

Thoughts and opinions are appreciated on this,
Square

The usb connection is most likely introducing a ground loop. I would probably try something like a iSilencer before purchasing a new PSU.

 

[square.]

The usb connection is most likely introducing a ground loop. I would probably try something like a iSilencer before purchasing a new PSU.

I have a ground loop isolator from iFi, I plugged it in and the problem still persists.
(See here: https://ifi-audio.com/products/idefender-plus/)

However, the iSilencer is designed for a different purpose, presumably my one?
(iSilencer link: https://ifi-audio.com/products/isilencer-plus/)

Note: the iDefender was great when I used a usb-powered dac, but I no longer need it since my new dac is powered via mains, not usb.

 

[JayGilb]

I have a ground loop isolator from iFi, I plugged it in and the problem still persists.
(See here: https://ifi-audio.com/products/idefender-plus/)

However, the iSilencer is designed for a different purpose, presumably my one?
(iSilencer link: https://ifi-audio.com/products/isilencer-plus/)

Too bad. Have you tried the iDefender with a separate USB power supply.

I have seen a few cases on ASR where either unit fixed the problem and others like yours, where the noise persisted.
Can you return the iDefender and/or exchange it for the iSilencer ?

 

[square.]

Too bad. Have you tried the iDefender with a separate USB power supply.

I have seen a few cases on ASR where either unit fixed the problem and others like yours, where the noise persisted.
Can you return the iDefender and/or exchange it for the iSilencer ?

I can indeed! I am going to return the iDefender today.

However, I can, right now, use the iPower 2 which is a 5v DC plug to power the iDefender (<<< Please read this reply fully before responding to this statement).

But I'm worried about this potentially damaging the dac?

Pictured above is an image from the user manual of the iDefender+, which states the extra power supply to the usb stick itself is not needed for a dac such as mine.

Furthermore, pictured below is a statement from iFi saying that the iSilencer+ will not work with externally powered dacs

So honestly I am really confused here.

I need to start the return process for the iDefender and iPower 2 today ideally, as they run out of their return window on the 31st.

Would you suggest trying the 5v power brick on the iDefender to see if this will solve the issue of the dac whining?

P.S this RME dac sounds unreal.

 

[JayGilb]

Would you suggest trying the 5v power brick on the iDefender to see if this will solve the issue of the dac whining?

No, not if there is even a slight amount of risk to the RME. I would personally try the iSilencer in an exchange first.

Good luck, maybe let us know if it fixes your problem as it might a viable solution for others who visit the forum.

 

[square.]

No, not if there is even a slight amount of risk to the RME. I would personally try the iSilencer in an exchange first.

Good luck, maybe let us know if it fixes your problem as it might a viable solution for others who visit the forum.

Alright mate, no problem, glad I got your response so quickly as I might have tried the iPower 2 without hearing a response.

I will try the iSilencer+ and post an update on this forum for others reading in the future.

To recap:
My RME ADI 2 FS physically whines out of the side ventilation when plugged into my pc via usb, playing no media.
It is completely silent when powered on, but not connected to pc via USB.
Trying the usb iDefender+ did not fix this.

The iDefender+ was useful in my case where I had a usb powered dac (Fiio k3), that was causing ground loop interference through my studio monitors without the iDefender+ and iPower 2 in the chain. I determined it was a ground loop by buying a terrible £8 RCA ground loop isolator, which had a bass cut off at 300hz and sounded awful. But this nonetheless proved to me I had a ground loop interference problem *IN THAT SCENARIO with the fiio k3*

With this new dac however, it is not usb powered, thus the device is not needed.
Hopefully iSilencer fixes it.

Square

 

[JayGilb]

Best of luck, I hope it works out for you. Worst case, you should be able to return the iSilencer if it does not fix your problem.

 

[square.]

Best of luck, I hope it works out for you. Worst case, you should be able to return the iSilencer if it does not fix your problem.

Correct yes. Amazon returns to the rescue

 

[JeffGB]

I've had ground loop issues like this that took a lot of time and messing around to fix. I would recommend simply buying XLR cables for your setup. That is truly the way to fix the noise. Other solutions might work, but there are no guarantees, and buying isolators, etc might get expensive.

 

[antcollinet]

In any case, changing your PC power supply won't solve the problem. The problem isn't that your PC is noisy (they all are - especially if they have powerful graphics cards) the problem is the noise is coupling into ground loops. Eliminate those and you will eliminate the noise.

Do you have an optical output from the PC that you can use instead of USB? Or swap the IFI for a USB to Toslink converter.

 

[square.]

I've had ground loop issues like this that took a lot of time and messing around to fix. I would recommend simply buying XLR cables for your setup. That is truly the way to fix the noise. Other solutions might work, but there are no guarantees, and buying isolators, etc might get expensive.

The noise comes directly from the dac itself. Read my replies

In any case, changing your PC power supply won't solve the problem. The problem isn't that your PC is noisy (they all are - especially if they have powerful graphics cards) the problem is the noise is coupling into ground loops. Eliminate those and you will eliminate the noise.

Do you have an optical output from the PC that you can use instead of USB? Or swap the IFI for a USB to Toslink converter.

I do not have an optical port on the motherboard. I had no idea usb to Toslink adapters were a thing, this sounds optimal if the iSilencer+ does not work