Cheap Pioneer speakers appear to be on closeout sale, SP-FS53 and the SW-10 subwoofer.

[KaiserSoze]

Best thing I've heard all day. Those AJ speakers were an absolute disgrace to the Pioneer name. Good riddance I say.

So your opinion is that Pioneer ought not sell speakers this affordable because it hurts their reputation. Okay, got it.

 

[JohnBooty]

I agree with your overall plan. A 2.1 system is the most affordable way to get a full-range system.

To my way of thinking the BS22 and other speakers of similar size generally start to distort heavily at frequency about an octave higher than the frequency at which I would want to crossover to a single subwoofer. As such I simply do not understand what they are for.

What size room are you working with? What output levels are you trying to hit? Have you actually tried bookshelves in this sort of configuration (crossed over to subs) in your room and found the output levels lacking?

My experience in small/medium rooms (let's say 1,000-1,700 ft³) is that I find the BS22s (and other affordable bookshelves like the Q100s) offer plenty of output when crossed over to subwoofers at 60 or 80hz. Those modest woofers get relatively loud and clean, as long as the deeper bass frequencies are shunted off to the subwoofer. Deep bass is what really makes those modest woofers start to misbehave.

Nevertheless, for anyone looking to spend no more than $700 or $800 to get a stereo system that sounds decent and that includes a satisfactory bass capability that is clean, I just don't know of any anything else that fits the description.

If active speakers are an option, JBL 305 or 306 plus the matching 310S subwoofer (which has a 80hz high-pass for the mains) would fit the budget and outclass the proposed Pioneer combos in every way.

 

[KaiserSoze]

I agree with your overall plan. A 2.1 system is the most affordable way to get a full-range system.

What size room are you working with? What output levels are you trying to hit? Have you actually tried bookshelves in this sort of configuration (crossed over to subs) in your room and found the output levels lacking?

My experience in small/medium rooms (let's say 1,000-1,700 ft³) is that I find the BS22s (and other affordable bookshelves like the Q100s) offer plenty of output when crossed over to subwoofers at 60 or 80hz. Those modest woofers get relatively loud and clean, as long as the deeper bass frequencies are shunted off to the subwoofer. Deep bass is what really makes those modest woofers start to misbehave.


If active speakers are an option, JBL 305 or 306 plus the matching 310S subwoofer (which has a 80hz high-pass for the mains) would fit the budget and outclass the proposed Pioneer combos in every way.

The room size tends to change from time to time and I've been listening to speakers of every size, shape and variety for a good bit longer than the mean age of the population at large. For the most part, the sound of any small speaker is going to be that of a small speaker, not to suggest that there are not important differences, because clearly the differences among them are substantial and important, but small speakers are nevertheless characterized most readily by the lack of bass (or clean bass). For a given SPL and a given area for the radiating surface, diaphragm displacement increases as the inverse square of frequency. E.g., displacement is four times greater at 75 Hz vs. 150 Hz. The amount of displacement needed to achieve at given SPL at a given frequency is in inverse proportion with the square of the diaphragm diameter. And as soon as the trailing end of the coil ceases to extend beyond the gap, the speaker ceases to behave in an appreciably linear manner.

Those JBL speakers look like they should be pretty good, especially the one with the 8" woofer, but of course they are powered monitors and even the small one with the claimed 5" driver (which is probably closer to 4" in terms of the actual diaphragm area) costs a good bit more than the cheap FS52. I've put the decision on hold for the time being, but a pair of the 308P (8") combined with a good sub sounds like a pretty good solution that would come in at around $1000. By comparison, a pair of the Elac DF62 towers, which I had identified as an acceptable and cost-effective solution, would cost nearly twice as much as a pair of the 308P, bringing the total cost closer to $1250.

One of the very best values at present is the Definitive Mythos STS, marked down from original MSRP of $1500 to $700. It is an outstanding value at this price, when you consider that it has a built-in powered sub of high quality and is excellent all around. But personally I still struggle with the idea of spending $1400 on speakers. Anyone looking to spend this much would do themselves a favor by taking a serious look at these speakers. The best buys are almost always the ones that are old news.

 

[JohnBooty]

The room size tends to change from time to time and I've been listening to speakers of every size, shape and variety for a good bit longer than the mean age of the population at large. For the most part, the sound of any small speaker is going to be that of a small speaker, not to suggest that there are not important differences, because clearly the differences among them are substantial and important,

Didn't mean to doubt your bona fides! Was just curious if you'd tried smaller speakers in your space and found their output too limited when subs were handling the lower octaves.

Absolutely agree that there's no replacement for displacement. I only championed smaller speakers in this instance because I thought we were constraining ourselves to very low cost solutions.

My current personal preference (subject to change) is that I'm even willing to trade accuracy in the frequency response domain for effortless, dynamic peaks that demand larger speakers.

Perhaps not relevant, but there are some affordable, relatively compact, relatively high-output DIY kits. Obviously, DIY is not an option for all. The Overnight Sensation MTM, S2000 MTM, Apollo MTM, and Helix MTM kits are the ones I'm thinking of. I have experience with the first two and they will all greatly surpass the BS22 in terms of output. I suspect the latter two would blow past the FS52 as well. Just a thought for anybody looking into affordable, higher-output speakers (a worthwhile goal IMO).

 

[KaiserSoze]

Didn't mean to doubt your bona fides! Was just curious if you'd tried smaller speakers in your space and found their output too limited when subs were handling the lower octaves.

Absolutely agree that there's no replacement for displacement. I only championed smaller speakers in this instance because I thought we were constraining ourselves to very low cost solutions.

My current personal preference (subject to change) is that I'm even willing to trade accuracy in the frequency response domain for effortless, dynamic peaks that demand larger speakers.

Perhaps not relevant, but there are some affordable, relatively compact, relatively high-output DIY kits. Obviously, DIY is not an option for all. The Overnight Sensation MTM, S2000 MTM, Apollo MTM, and Helix MTM kits are the ones I'm thinking of. I have experience with the first two and they will all greatly surpass the BS22 in terms of output. I suspect the latter two would blow past the FS52 as well. Just a thought for anybody looking into affordable, higher-output speakers (a worthwhile goal IMO).

There are plenty of good kits out there. Two that I like are https://meniscusaudio.com/product/anthology-bare-bones-kit-pair/ and http://www.jantzen-audio.com/sba-3wc/

Whenever I look at kits I see things that I would have done different. Some things annoy me just because from a theoretical perspective I don't think it makes good sense. With the anthology I don't like the D'Appolito configuration and I don't prefer the woofer they chose because its Fs isn't low enough. There is even less to dislike about the SB 3-way Classic, except that again I wouldn't have chosen that particular SB woofer for the same reason, i.e., Fs isn't low enough. But both of these kits are in all likelihood excellent speakers and excellent values, for anyone who doesn't share my quirky likes and dislikes. The SB 3-way in particular is very affordable if you buy the version without the burn-some-money capacitors. Which reminds me that earlier today I was looking at some audiophile forum and some audiophile was advising another audiophile who had just bought new speakers that time would be needed for the capacitors to break in.

I've never liked the D'Appolito configuration. To my way of thinking it deals with a downward-tilting main lobe in the crossover region by making the lobe tilt up from the bottom to match the downward tilt from the top. You end up with a narrow sweet spot in the vertical plane, and that's before even considering that since the woofers are pushed further apart, you introduce destructive interference in the wavefronts for those two drivers for the upper portion of their operating range. And just to fix a trivial problem that can be fixed simply by tilting the speaker back so that the drivers are in vertical alignment. I decided several decades ago that the real reason people like MTM is most likely because the symmetry is aesthetically appealing.

Bandwidth and efficiency are inherently traded one against the other in loudspeakers. Ported speakers improve efficiency in a very narrow frequency band at the expense of bandwidth. They roll off in a steep, unnatural way right below the lower resonance, i.e., the port resonance. This may be a good idea for big speakers where the woofers will be appreciably flat down to about 30 Hz when mounted in a sealed enclosure. For smaller speakers that barely manage to reach into the mid-bass, I prefer the smoother rolloff of a sealed enclosure. And I don't like the way that driver excursion increases exponentially as the frequency goes lower than the port tuning frequency. Ported speakers where the port tuning is higher than 40 Hz should have high-pass filters to prevent this, but then the rolloff would be even steeper, which to my way of thinking reveals the folly of designing loudspeakers around the Helmholtz radiator principle.

 

[JohnBooty]

I'm always interested in the goal of finding great starter systems for newcomers, as they represent the future of our hobby and industry.

But we've gone from considering cheap Pioneers as the cornerstones of a possible low-cost, suitably high-output, reasonably full-range setup because "you can buy a pair of FS52 and the ported sub all for the low low price of $400" ....to talking about $1,000+ kits. Yes, if one spends more, one certainly can get more performance!

I think I'm respectfully bowing out. I don't understand what we're talking about at this point.

 

[KaiserSoze]

I'm always interested in the goal of finding great starter systems for newcomers, as they represent the future of our hobby and industry.

But we've gone from considering cheap Pioneers as the cornerstones of a possible low-cost, suitably high-output, reasonably full-range setup because "you can buy a pair of FS52 and the ported sub all for the low low price of $400" ....to talking about $1,000+ kits.

I think I'm respectfully bowing out. I don't understand what we're talking about at this point.

Things certainly did go off in a quasi-random direction.

The JBL 308P MkII looks to be a viable alternatively and one that I wasn't aware of until you suggested the smaller one with the 5" woofer. I appreciate your having brought my attention to these speakers. So far as I am able to discern this would be the next step up from the Pioneer tower notwithstanding that the total price allowing $400 for a subwoofer will increase from about $600 to about $900. That's a big jump, but I honestly do not know of anything else that would be in between and that would I wouldn't reject for reasons that other people might not understand. Thanks for you input.

 

[2go]

@Dennis Murphy can you please share docs about FS-52 mod ? I've already modded BS22 (replaced tweeter and rebuild crossover) and found it's sounds great. Would like to do the same with towers as well. Thanks a lot!

 

[Dennis Murphy]

@Dennis Murphy can you please share docs about FS-52 mod ? I've already modded BS22 (replaced tweeter and rebuild crossover) and found it's sounds great. Would like to do the same with towers as well. Thanks a lot!

Well, as I said on the first page: I drew up a word document that gives instructions for modding the 52's, along with a parts list and links. It really is a mess to implement, and I'm not positive anyone has completed one successfully. You're welcome to take a look at it--just email me : [email protected]

Has anyone seen the BS22 on sale anywhere? Or is it totally history now?

 

[2go]

@Dennis Murphy Well, I've actually did that few days ago but got no response and decided to ask here just in case if that e-mail is no longer monitored. Looks like BS22 is still not a history yet, saw them on woot.com sale 2 days ago but they're already gone =(

 

[Sonny1]

@Dennis Murphy Well, I've actually did that few days ago but got no response and decided to ask here just in case if that e-mail is no longer monitored. Looks like BS22 is still not a history yet, saw them on woot.com sale 2 days ago but they're already gone =(

That’s too bad! I still have my old pair and the new tweeters/parts to do the Murphy Mod. Just don’t have time. Need to find my old soldering iron one of these days.

 

[2go]

@Dennis Murphy thanks a lot for sharing FS52 mod. I will try to document everything I've did and try to publish results.
@Sonny1 well, I believe that time is the main problem and resource we losing

Btw: If somebody can review crossover mod for the BS22 I've done in according to the Dennis Murphy schematics I would appreciate that a lot and can share details how to make it. The reason I decided to do it that way is just because I don't wanted to have one more board inside to cause any vibrations if any. I still have to mod 2 speakers (for my workplace) so if it's good and people find it reasonable I can do photos while making a progress.

 

[981CS]

If I only have $100 for a pair of new speakers, I still think the BS-22's would be near the top of my list. Clearly they have some shortcomings but for less than $100 shipped, they represent excellent sound for the money.

And you don't need a lot of WPC to push them, unlike some of AJ's other designs. A 20WPC Class D amp is more than sufficient for a small/medium room.

 

[kalifa89]

@Dennis Murphy thanks a lot for sharing FS52 mod. I will try to document everything I've did and try to publish results.
@Sonny1 well, I believe that time is the main problem and resource we losing

Btw: If somebody can review crossover mod for the BS22 I've done in according to the Dennis Murphy schematics I would appreciate that a lot and can share details how to make it. The reason I decided to do it that way is just because I don't wanted to have one more board inside to cause any vibrations if any. I still have to mod 2 speakers (for my workplace) so if it's good and people find it reasonable I can do photos while making a progress.

Can you please share the mod for fs52 by Dennis Murphy, i hardly can't find it anywhere....

 

[tw 2022]

Can you please share the mod for fs52 by Dennis Murphy, i hardly can't find it anywhere....

@Dennis Murphy ...