Was that an analog audio line level isolator? They will generally degrade audio quality. On the USB lines however, that is not the case.
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Cheap old soundcard vs onboard audio
- Thread starter Octopuss
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- Thread Starter
- #22
Yes, it plugged between the sound card cand the amp. It completely eliminated the noise, but I eventually returned it after reading about the supposed shortcomings.
Btw the mouse buzzing noise can only be heard when I raise amp volume so hight it would literally break my eardrums and maybe send things flying, so in practical terms it's not a problem, but once I heard it I can't unhear it, and just the fact it's there is bugging me out of general principle. The occasional+random Nokia-receiving-a-call-forgotten-on-a-speaker is actually really bugging me though and I suppose both would be eliminated in the same way. That's why I was eyeing the Bifrost. I actually would like to get it anyway after reading some reviews where people claimed it was pretty good for listening to metal (I don't think I'd notice a difference but why not).
Changing the mains power lead (wall to PC) would ascertain if there might be a poor earthing problem and trying a laptop with USB DAC would help discover whether the problem is in your computer or in your audio system.
MaxwellsEq
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From a high quality audio point of, the inside of a PC is absolute hell! It's a hot mess of high frequency on-off pulses. As an engineer it still amazes me that you can get OK audio off the motherboard directly!
That noise travels through the air. It also travels in the PC's power rails and on the PC's ground rails. Some of this can leak out through the USB cable. Some DACs do an excellent job of isolating this and others a merely adequate job.
Ground loops are different. With normal audio gear they sound like low frequency hums and buzzes. When a PC is part of a ground loop, they tend to introduce complex noises. People report mouse movements become audible, others notice high CPU or GPU activity causes these effects. Ground loops are tricky to isolate. Sometimes putting every device on the same extension lead helps. Other times, requires isolation through transformers or using only balanced working.
MaxwellsEq
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I should add - if your motherboard has optical out, give that a go. It will break ground loops and isolate noise on USB power and audio lines
MaxwellsEq
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There are two common means of wiring a DAC to a bitstream source: S/PDIF (or AES) and USB. The former pre-dates the latter by a decade or so.
S/PDIF has a choice of physical media: copper co-ax or fiber. The co-ax version reliably supports 192kHz sample rates, the fiber version reliably supports 96kHz sample rates. In practice, many people find 192kHz is supported as well, it's just not in the standard.
Older optical setups could suffer more jitter than copper, but this has been a non-issue for years.
Succinctly: in practice there are no downsides to optical, but there is a massive upside: no ground loops and no earth or PSU noise.
- Thread Starter
- #28
Oh well. Schiit Bifrost 2 arrived.
The noise is COMPLETELY GONE. That alone was well worth the money (ok maybe not that much money but I'm still really happy).
As for sound, it's difficult to assess because the onboard sound chip is about 20-30% quieter so quick input switching comparisons are pretty much impossible.
That being said, I think the music sounds about the same, and I'm kind of suspecting big snake oil when it comes to the audiophile ecosystem. Not when it comes to difference between small PC speakers vs big 3-way speakers with a powerful amp (that's what I did about seven years ago, coming from what I believe were Canton Chrono 502-something small speakers to these 15kg elephants and suddenly I heard stuff I never did before), but more like all those weird claims where people say one DAC making violin at time 2:47 sound a little more resonant vs the other DAC, which stinks of placebo and bullshit all the way around the globe and back.
Anyway, problem is seemingly solved (even if with a nuclear bomb when a punch might have been enough ), and I am happy.
The noise is COMPLETELY GONE. That alone was well worth the money (ok maybe not that much money but I'm still really happy).
As for sound, it's difficult to assess because the onboard sound chip is about 20-30% quieter so quick input switching comparisons are pretty much impossible.
That being said, I think the music sounds about the same, and I'm kind of suspecting big snake oil when it comes to the audiophile ecosystem. Not when it comes to difference between small PC speakers vs big 3-way speakers with a powerful amp (that's what I did about seven years ago, coming from what I believe were Canton Chrono 502-something small speakers to these 15kg elephants and suddenly I heard stuff I never did before), but more like all those weird claims where people say one DAC making violin at time 2:47 sound a little more resonant vs the other DAC, which stinks of placebo and bullshit all the way around the globe and back.
Anyway, problem is seemingly solved (even if with a nuclear bomb when a punch might have been enough ), and I am happy.
Download EqualizerAPO, it can apply preamp function to both system-wide as well as to specific audio device.
- Thread Starter
- #30
I downloaded it, but have no idea what to do with it. Can you give me a short TL;DR?
I would recommend getting the Peace GUI as well. That being said, applying just one preamp to the DAC output device would be easy even "barefoot".
First off, make sure the APO is actually installed for the DAC's output device (should be the onboard SPDIF output). The Device Selector tool should have launched upon installation but you can run it any time you want. If you can't get your filters to do anything, use the Troubleshooting Options checkbox and try another mode.
Open the Configuration Editor, add (green +) a Simple Filter --> Preamp, and dial in like -6 dB for starters.
BTW, would that be the Schiit Bifrost 2 that was $699 in 2021? I imagine that even a used one would still be a bit hard on the wallet. You don't need to pay multibit DAC tax (and get worse performance for more money) just to solve a ground loop issue. A basic Topping E30 II (or E50 if you insist on balanced outputs) or similar would be plenty fine for that.
And no, I wouldn't expect the onboard output to be (audibly) sonically inferior either. The typical Realteks have been fine as line-level outputs for well over a decade now, though headphone use in particular may necessitate battling some software sound misimprovements first, and board manufacturers generally manage to produce layouts that don't needlessly mar analog performance these days. Of course you often don't get the same output level, distortion performance is merely good enough by human standards (but at least well-behaved - nobody can tell me they can hear H2 at -87 dBr), and instantaneous dynamic range won't match even an entry-level ($100) external DAC, even if even a basic ALC897 still is good enough as a fixed level line-out. Digital filter passband ripple even beats a number of current chips by big-name DAC makers. I would say that the folks at Realtek know very well what they can get away with while still not giving anyone a reason to complain. (On the output side, anyway. Their insistence on doing everything on-chip has had the effect of making microphone bias voltage rather more noisy than it should be, and hence effectively the mic inputs, despite all efforts.)
First off, make sure the APO is actually installed for the DAC's output device (should be the onboard SPDIF output). The Device Selector tool should have launched upon installation but you can run it any time you want. If you can't get your filters to do anything, use the Troubleshooting Options checkbox and try another mode.
Open the Configuration Editor, add (green +) a Simple Filter --> Preamp, and dial in like -6 dB for starters.
BTW, would that be the Schiit Bifrost 2 that was $699 in 2021? I imagine that even a used one would still be a bit hard on the wallet. You don't need to pay multibit DAC tax (and get worse performance for more money) just to solve a ground loop issue. A basic Topping E30 II (or E50 if you insist on balanced outputs) or similar would be plenty fine for that.
And no, I wouldn't expect the onboard output to be (audibly) sonically inferior either. The typical Realteks have been fine as line-level outputs for well over a decade now, though headphone use in particular may necessitate battling some software sound misimprovements first, and board manufacturers generally manage to produce layouts that don't needlessly mar analog performance these days. Of course you often don't get the same output level, distortion performance is merely good enough by human standards (but at least well-behaved - nobody can tell me they can hear H2 at -87 dBr), and instantaneous dynamic range won't match even an entry-level ($100) external DAC, even if even a basic ALC897 still is good enough as a fixed level line-out. Digital filter passband ripple even beats a number of current chips by big-name DAC makers. I would say that the folks at Realtek know very well what they can get away with while still not giving anyone a reason to complain. (On the output side, anyway. Their insistence on doing everything on-chip has had the effect of making microphone bias voltage rather more noisy than it should be, and hence effectively the mic inputs, despite all efforts.)
- Thread Starter
- #32
I don't know. I'd like to call it done.
Eventually I gave up on the program and kind of managed to even out the volumes, and the Bifrost seems to sound a little "fuller", for lack of better words. Of course, I might be hearing things.
The thing certainly was expensive - €905 including shipping. But I like it. Yes It's most likely completely pointless especially considering I can't hear a damn bit of difference between 128kbit mp3 and FLAC (at least last time I tried; not sure if on these speakers though), but if I was to get anything else, I'd most likely need one of those ground loop isolators, which means more wires, and maybe the noise wouldn't even completely disappear. With the Bifrost, all of it is gone.
Eventually I gave up on the program and kind of managed to even out the volumes, and the Bifrost seems to sound a little "fuller", for lack of better words. Of course, I might be hearing things.
The thing certainly was expensive - €905 including shipping. But I like it. Yes It's most likely completely pointless especially considering I can't hear a damn bit of difference between 128kbit mp3 and FLAC (at least last time I tried; not sure if on these speakers though), but if I was to get anything else, I'd most likely need one of those ground loop isolators, which means more wires, and maybe the noise wouldn't even completely disappear. With the Bifrost, all of it is gone.
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