Was that an analog audio line level isolator? They will generally degrade audio quality. On the USB lines however, that is not the case.
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Cheap old soundcard vs onboard audio
- Thread starter Octopuss
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- Thread Starter
- #22
Yes, it plugged between the sound card cand the amp. It completely eliminated the noise, but I eventually returned it after reading about the supposed shortcomings.
Btw the mouse buzzing noise can only be heard when I raise amp volume so hight it would literally break my eardrums and maybe send things flying, so in practical terms it's not a problem, but once I heard it I can't unhear it, and just the fact it's there is bugging me out of general principle. The occasional+random Nokia-receiving-a-call-forgotten-on-a-speaker is actually really bugging me though and I suppose both would be eliminated in the same way. That's why I was eyeing the Bifrost. I actually would like to get it anyway after reading some reviews where people claimed it was pretty good for listening to metal (I don't think I'd notice a difference but why not).
Changing the mains power lead (wall to PC) would ascertain if there might be a poor earthing problem and trying a laptop with USB DAC would help discover whether the problem is in your computer or in your audio system.
MaxwellsEq
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From a high quality audio point of, the inside of a PC is absolute hell! It's a hot mess of high frequency on-off pulses. As an engineer it still amazes me that you can get OK audio off the motherboard directly!
That noise travels through the air. It also travels in the PC's power rails and on the PC's ground rails. Some of this can leak out through the USB cable. Some DACs do an excellent job of isolating this and others a merely adequate job.
Ground loops are different. With normal audio gear they sound like low frequency hums and buzzes. When a PC is part of a ground loop, they tend to introduce complex noises. People report mouse movements become audible, others notice high CPU or GPU activity causes these effects. Ground loops are tricky to isolate. Sometimes putting every device on the same extension lead helps. Other times, requires isolation through transformers or using only balanced working.
MaxwellsEq
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I should add - if your motherboard has optical out, give that a go. It will break ground loops and isolate noise on USB power and audio lines
MaxwellsEq
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There are two common means of wiring a DAC to a bitstream source: S/PDIF (or AES) and USB. The former pre-dates the latter by a decade or so.
S/PDIF has a choice of physical media: copper co-ax or fiber. The co-ax version reliably supports 192kHz sample rates, the fiber version reliably supports 96kHz sample rates. In practice, many people find 192kHz is supported as well, it's just not in the standard.
Older optical setups could suffer more jitter than copper, but this has been a non-issue for years.
Succinctly: in practice there are no downsides to optical, but there is a massive upside: no ground loops and no earth or PSU noise.
- Thread Starter
- #28
Oh well. Schiit Bifrost 2 arrived.
The noise is COMPLETELY GONE. That alone was well worth the money (ok maybe not that much money but I'm still really happy).
As for sound, it's difficult to assess because the onboard sound chip is about 20-30% quieter so quick input switching comparisons are pretty much impossible.
That being said, I think the music sounds about the same, and I'm kind of suspecting big snake oil when it comes to the audiophile ecosystem. Not when it comes to difference between small PC speakers vs big 3-way speakers with a powerful amp (that's what I did about seven years ago, coming from what I believe were Canton Chrono 502-something small speakers to these 15kg elephants and suddenly I heard stuff I never did before), but more like all those weird claims where people say one DAC making violin at time 2:47 sound a little more resonant vs the other DAC, which stinks of placebo and bullshit all the way around the globe and back.
Anyway, problem is seemingly solved (even if with a nuclear bomb when a punch might have been enough ), and I am happy.
The noise is COMPLETELY GONE. That alone was well worth the money (ok maybe not that much money but I'm still really happy).
As for sound, it's difficult to assess because the onboard sound chip is about 20-30% quieter so quick input switching comparisons are pretty much impossible.
That being said, I think the music sounds about the same, and I'm kind of suspecting big snake oil when it comes to the audiophile ecosystem. Not when it comes to difference between small PC speakers vs big 3-way speakers with a powerful amp (that's what I did about seven years ago, coming from what I believe were Canton Chrono 502-something small speakers to these 15kg elephants and suddenly I heard stuff I never did before), but more like all those weird claims where people say one DAC making violin at time 2:47 sound a little more resonant vs the other DAC, which stinks of placebo and bullshit all the way around the globe and back.
Anyway, problem is seemingly solved (even if with a nuclear bomb when a punch might have been enough ), and I am happy.
Download EqualizerAPO, it can apply preamp function to both system-wide as well as to specific audio device.
- Thread Starter
- #30
I downloaded it, but have no idea what to do with it. Can you give me a short TL;DR?
AnalogSteph
Master Contributor
I would recommend getting the Peace GUI as well. That being said, applying just one preamp to the DAC output device would be easy even "barefoot".
First off, make sure the APO is actually installed for the DAC's output device (should be the onboard SPDIF output). The Device Selector tool should have launched upon installation but you can run it any time you want. If you can't get your filters to do anything, use the Troubleshooting Options checkbox and try another mode.
Open the Configuration Editor, add (green +) a Simple Filter --> Preamp, and dial in like -6 dB for starters.
BTW, would that be the Schiit Bifrost 2 that was $699 in 2021? I imagine that even a used one would still be a bit hard on the wallet. You don't need to pay multibit DAC tax (and get worse performance for more money) just to solve a ground loop issue. A basic Topping E30 II (or E50 if you insist on balanced outputs) or similar would be plenty fine for that.
And no, I wouldn't expect the onboard output to be (audibly) sonically inferior either. The typical Realteks have been fine as line-level outputs for well over a decade now, though headphone use in particular may necessitate battling some software sound misimprovements first, and board manufacturers generally manage to produce layouts that don't needlessly mar analog performance these days. Of course you often don't get the same output level, distortion performance is merely good enough by human standards (but at least well-behaved - nobody can tell me they can hear H2 at -87 dBr), and instantaneous dynamic range won't match even an entry-level ($100) external DAC, even if even a basic ALC897 still is good enough as a fixed level line-out. Digital filter passband ripple even beats a number of current chips by big-name DAC makers. I would say that the folks at Realtek know very well what they can get away with while still not giving anyone a reason to complain. (On the output side, anyway. Their insistence on doing everything on-chip has had the effect of making microphone bias voltage rather more noisy than it should be, and hence effectively the mic inputs, despite all efforts.)
First off, make sure the APO is actually installed for the DAC's output device (should be the onboard SPDIF output). The Device Selector tool should have launched upon installation but you can run it any time you want. If you can't get your filters to do anything, use the Troubleshooting Options checkbox and try another mode.
Open the Configuration Editor, add (green +) a Simple Filter --> Preamp, and dial in like -6 dB for starters.
BTW, would that be the Schiit Bifrost 2 that was $699 in 2021? I imagine that even a used one would still be a bit hard on the wallet. You don't need to pay multibit DAC tax (and get worse performance for more money) just to solve a ground loop issue. A basic Topping E30 II (or E50 if you insist on balanced outputs) or similar would be plenty fine for that.
And no, I wouldn't expect the onboard output to be (audibly) sonically inferior either. The typical Realteks have been fine as line-level outputs for well over a decade now, though headphone use in particular may necessitate battling some software sound misimprovements first, and board manufacturers generally manage to produce layouts that don't needlessly mar analog performance these days. Of course you often don't get the same output level, distortion performance is merely good enough by human standards (but at least well-behaved - nobody can tell me they can hear H2 at -87 dBr), and instantaneous dynamic range won't match even an entry-level ($100) external DAC, even if even a basic ALC897 still is good enough as a fixed level line-out. Digital filter passband ripple even beats a number of current chips by big-name DAC makers. I would say that the folks at Realtek know very well what they can get away with while still not giving anyone a reason to complain. (On the output side, anyway. Their insistence on doing everything on-chip has had the effect of making microphone bias voltage rather more noisy than it should be, and hence effectively the mic inputs, despite all efforts.)
- Thread Starter
- #32
I don't know. I'd like to call it done.
Eventually I gave up on the program and kind of managed to even out the volumes, and the Bifrost seems to sound a little "fuller", for lack of better words. Of course, I might be hearing things.
The thing certainly was expensive - €905 including shipping. But I like it. Yes It's most likely completely pointless especially considering I can't hear a damn bit of difference between 128kbit mp3 and FLAC (at least last time I tried; not sure if on these speakers though), but if I was to get anything else, I'd most likely need one of those ground loop isolators, which means more wires, and maybe the noise wouldn't even completely disappear. With the Bifrost, all of it is gone.
Eventually I gave up on the program and kind of managed to even out the volumes, and the Bifrost seems to sound a little "fuller", for lack of better words. Of course, I might be hearing things.
The thing certainly was expensive - €905 including shipping. But I like it. Yes It's most likely completely pointless especially considering I can't hear a damn bit of difference between 128kbit mp3 and FLAC (at least last time I tried; not sure if on these speakers though), but if I was to get anything else, I'd most likely need one of those ground loop isolators, which means more wires, and maybe the noise wouldn't even completely disappear. With the Bifrost, all of it is gone.
happy hopping
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I have an almost identical question, so I might as well hijack this thread, as it's back in Oct. 2025:
my motherboard is the new Asus Z890 Apex:
rog.asus.com
the onboard sound module says:
I want to buy this sound card:
www.asus.com
I have a Modi Schiit DAC that I will pipe the output of either the motherboard optical out or the pending sound card optical out, to a pair of active speaker, M-Audio M3-8
my question is the same:
is there a noticeable / significant difference between on Z890 on board sound module vs. Asus Xonar AE sound card?
my motherboard is the new Asus Z890 Apex:
ROG MAXIMUS Z890 APEX | ROG Maximus | Gaming Motherboards｜ROG - Republic of Gamers｜ROG Global
The ROG Maximus Z890 Apex is ready for Advanced AI PCs. It makes builds soar with 22+1+2+2 power stages, DDR5 slots, PCIe® 5.0 connectivity, six M.2 SSD slots
rog.asus.com
the onboard sound module says:
I want to buy this sound card:
Xonar AE｜Sound Cards｜ASUS Global
Xonar AE is a PCIe gaming sound card built with high-quality components to satisfy gamers who demand exceptional sound for the best gaming and multimedia experiences. Xonar AE delivers 7.1-channel, 192kHz/24-bit Hi-Res audio output with a high 110dB signal-to-noise ratio (SNR), and comes with a...
www.asus.com
I have a Modi Schiit DAC that I will pipe the output of either the motherboard optical out or the pending sound card optical out, to a pair of active speaker, M-Audio M3-8
my question is the same:
is there a noticeable / significant difference between on Z890 on board sound module vs. Asus Xonar AE sound card?
I cannot tell anything about audible difference, just technical info:
ALC4080 is a USB audio codec with no crystal clock (datasheet says "Internal clock generation supports non-crystal design") and USB adaptive mode - the audio clock gets recovered via PLL from the incoming USB signal - see its USB descriptor dump at http://alsa-project.org/db/?f=921a59fef53be68b32a68f551942e3909d4f3fe2 (linked from https://forums.opensuse.org/t/audio-front-ports-no-sound-alc4080/145964/5 ).
Xonar AE is also a USB-audio device with an onboard PCI-e-USB controller chip and CM6632A USB-audio codec. It uses proper async mode and has separate crystals for 48kHz and 44.1kHz audio clock families.
While the Xonar is technically superior, you will pay for lots of electronics you will not use. Any async USB device with SPDIF output would do. But maybe it would be in a similar price range as that Xonar.
ALC4080 is a USB audio codec with no crystal clock (datasheet says "Internal clock generation supports non-crystal design") and USB adaptive mode - the audio clock gets recovered via PLL from the incoming USB signal - see its USB descriptor dump at http://alsa-project.org/db/?f=921a59fef53be68b32a68f551942e3909d4f3fe2 (linked from https://forums.opensuse.org/t/audio-front-ports-no-sound-alc4080/145964/5 ).
Xonar AE is also a USB-audio device with an onboard PCI-e-USB controller chip and CM6632A USB-audio codec. It uses proper async mode and has separate crystals for 48kHz and 44.1kHz audio clock families.
While the Xonar is technically superior, you will pay for lots of electronics you will not use. Any async USB device with SPDIF output would do. But maybe it would be in a similar price range as that Xonar.
First off, you have a high grade sound chip on your mainboard.my motherboard is the new Asus Z890 Apex:
I want to buy this sound card:
Xonar AE｜Sound Cards｜ASUS Global
Xonar AE is a PCIe gaming sound card built with high-quality components to satisfy gamers who demand exceptional sound for the best gaming and multimedia experiences. Xonar AE delivers 7.1-channel, 192kHz/24-bit Hi-Res audio output with a high 110dB signal-to-noise ratio (SNR), and comes with a...
I have a Modi Schiit DAC that I will pipe the output of either the motherboard optical out or the pending sound card optical out, to a pair of active speaker, M-Audio M3-8
The Xonar card may have a bit better specs and nice, comprehensive software for in/output with some additional options.
But if you just use optical out either way, there isn't really much to be had. If you would use analogue in/out, maybe.. but also very slim chance in my opinion.
I would skip that purchase and connect the DAC to onboard.
ZolaIII
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ESS 9023P is an old DAC with SINAD of about 100 dB 2 V and codecs reach about 90 on ASUS card. On bord Realtek one goes to about 96 dB SINAD and 1.2 V. What do you nead? Old SB Z SE goes 106 dB SINAD on front chenels (old CS DAC) and little bit over 90 dB rest by codec but you need to stay up to 1.87 V regarding output as it clips above it (2.2 max) and has Toslink I/O (not just O). AE-5 (Plus) is newer but nothing high end ESS 32 based, again SINAD of 106 but with proper deacent headphone amplifier, rest is the same. There ends PCI-E budget offering live driver support. Neither has a quiet good ADC, that went to grave with EVGA. Creative is historically bad at it and you won't get a Linux suport nor it will work under it.
happy hopping
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okay, thank you everyone. I'll save the money and use the onboard. w/o the PCIe sound card, It also give me more space to put a portable fan to cool off my PCIe 5.0 NVMe SSD
someone else also said the same thing to me: since I'm piping out the TOslink to the Modi Schiit DAC, the Schiit will be doing the work, so he said the sound card is not needed. Ruediger above, said the same thing.
As to the DAC has USB, why use the sound card or onboard? because i don't know how the sound is send to the Schiit via USB? With my Toslink, now w/o buying the sound card, I just connect the Toslink cable to the back of the Schitt, and the Schiit will do the rest. I don't have struggle w/ USB software / hardware connection
someone else also said the same thing to me: since I'm piping out the TOslink to the Modi Schiit DAC, the Schiit will be doing the work, so he said the sound card is not needed. Ruediger above, said the same thing.
As to the DAC has USB, why use the sound card or onboard? because i don't know how the sound is send to the Schiit via USB? With my Toslink, now w/o buying the sound card, I just connect the Toslink cable to the back of the Schitt, and the Schiit will do the rest. I don't have struggle w/ USB software / hardware connection
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