Cheap class D amps. Andrew Robinsons take.

[voodooless]

It would be interesting to try newer chip amps with 100+ sensitive speakers. Last time I tried the circuits were so full of crap that it was a no go and then there's the cheap volume pot which is totally unusable. 2W (actually clean power) with good pot would be nice. But really a niche of the niche market.

Just get a decent headphone amp for 100 dB+ speakers

 

[Gruesome]

Slight hiss is normal. With sensitive speakers its common to hear hiss like 30cm from the tweeter. High pitched noise (more like a constant tone than just "grain") on the other hand means something is wrong. Also, a clearly heard noise from the amp itself, unless it has a toroid which may hum a bit, is not normal. But again, slight hum is very different from shrill noise.

Erm, no. Ok, maybe back in the sixties.

 

[Gruesome]

It would be interesting to try newer chip amps with 100+ sensitive speakers. Last time I tried the circuits were so full of crap that it was a no go and then there's the cheap volume pot which is totally unusable. 2W (actually clean power) with good pot would be nice. But really a niche of the niche market.

Verig, my understanding is that most or all of the newer class D amps are chip amps. The Arylic 50+, Loxjie A30, Topping PA3/5/7, Aiyama A07 etc. certainly are. Except for the Arylic A50+ (excessive hissing) they work fine with 87dB sensitivity speakers.

 

[Verig]

Verig, my understanding is that most or all of the newer class D amps are chip amps. The Arylic 50+, Loxjie A30, Topping PA3/5/7, Aiyama A07 etc. certainly are. Except for the Arylic A50+ (excessive hissing) they work fine with 87dB sensitivity speakers.

Yes. I guess I just need to try couple of them.

 

[Verig]

Erm, no. Ok, maybe back in the sixties.

Ok, so you haven't heard a faint hiss from your tweeters. I have with most setups. Doesn't affect listening so doesn't matter much anyway.

 

[Gruesome]

Verig, the Arylic 50+ was not a faint hiss, it was a hiss. Think 1970's turntable + amplifier setup, cranked up all the way.
I'm not saying the Arylic is not going to work for you, but it didn't work for me.

 

[Angsty]

Why would anyone on ASR watch something from Andrew Robinson to begin with?

I am often open to hear the opinions of people with which I disagree. I may learn something from their perspective that I might not have thought of before, even if I ultimately don’t change my own position.

 

[grogi.giant]

Is it just me or does Andrew look like Wil Wheaton?

View attachment 283668 View attachment 283669


JSmith

Don't bring the awesomeness of Wil Wheaton into this...

 

[Angsty]

It's a commonly held belief reinforced by the industry that you can't match cheap with expensive regardless of the actual capabilities of the units in question.

If I had a pound for the number of times I've been told I shouldn't be using a £130 DAC with fifteen grands worth of amps and loudspeakers I could buy a more expensive DAC.

Performance is what matters, not price. An inexpensive DAC can be essentially perfect in reproduction in a way that an inexpensive speaker cannot be.

 

[Mart68]

Performance is what matters, not price. An inexpensive DAC can be essentially perfect in reproduction in a way that an inexpensive speaker cannot be.

Exactly. The DAC passed every single ASR test with flying colours so how can any other DAC possibly be any better, at least for sound quality?

Looks and features is a different matter but I don't need any features and I like the look anyway.

A friend who likes his R-2R DACs reckoned it made a grand piano sound like an upright. Which I think is classic case of listening with the eyes and the price in mind.

 

[KaeliKoo]

I skimmed the video... he's correct about one thing, which is these cheaper amps are advertised with way over the top power ratings. Often it's also unclear to the consumer that they may require a different power supply to get remotely close to the "rated" power.

Apart from that the rest seemed rather subjective in general, especially this part;



JSmith

Every manufacturer who has a TP3255 chip in their device seems to have the 300W/channel listed in the specs. That is coming from Texas Instruments on their published documentation of the chip.

https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa3255.pdf?ts=1689472067251&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F

 

[JSmith]

Every manufacturer who has a TP3255 chip in their device seems to have the 300W/channel listed in the specs. That is coming from Texas Instruments on their published documentation of the chip.

Yeah, they sure do... we've all noticed.

Which is why I implore them all to be honest in their marketing. Companies that do this may get in strife in Australia for example and other countries with strong consumer protection laws.


JSmith

 

[marX]

My problem with cheap class-D amps is their warranty policy (because most of them are sold and shipped from China). Because of this, I have to buy exclusively from Amazon or any other big Hi-Fi dealer.

My first ever 'Hifi' amp was a Yamaha AS500. After that, I bought two Aiyimas for testing and liked the A7's performance.

 

[KaeliKoo]

I have to believe the big AVR "intelligentsia" isn't sleeping real great these days...

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Who cares about warranty for cheap amps. Might as well purchase a Walmart extended warranty. My persistent wife tried that route. I warned her. Throw it in the trash and replace. Not worth time and stress.

 

[Andysu]

Came across as a polished used car salesman.

 

[ta240]

He musts practice those faces in front of a mirror.

 

[AnthonyH]

What high sensitivity speakers? Just about every speaker I test has a sensitivity of 85 to 86 dB which is quite low. You need hundreds of watts to push them to proper reference level (peaks).

I have Magnepan speakers with a sensitivity of 83.7 dB/2.83V based on a review. I estimate required power this way. I play a CD track and set the volume control at my normal listening level (about 80-85 dB SPL). I then used the REW software to generate 1 kHz at 20 dB below full scale and measure the peak to peak voltage on the speaker terminals with an oscilloscope without changing the volume setting. It was 10 V peak to peak (and produced about 80 dB SPL). Somewhere on that CD track there is should be a peak at full scale (which roughly speaking is the largest possible 16-bit signed integer) - at least for jazz or classical music. So to play this peak properly, the amplifier must provide 100 V peak to peak. According to the specs for the Mackie, it can produce 500 W RMS into 4 ohms, which is 126 V peak to peak. This is consistent with its power supply voltage of ±80 V. This whole approach is very empirical - my speakers, my room, my kind of music, my listening level. I was just trying to figure out why the Mackie amp, which probably has an unimpressive SINAD at 5W, sounded better to me than other amps that, on paper, were better.
Anyhow, if I replace my speakers with ones having sensitivity at the lower end of amirm's 85 to 86 dB, I probably still need at least 200 W RMS. A pair of Outlaw 2220 would work just fine and could probably drive even the Magnepans. I have to emphasize that this is right for my situation. To discover what's right for you, you need to take measurements in your room listening to the kind of music you like.

You might be able to get by without an oscilloscope if you build an attenuator to hang on the speaker terminals and feed the signal into your PC but if you know enough to make that work you probably already own a 'scope.

https://routledgetextbooks.com/textbooks/9781138921368/home-theatre.php has good information on required power - it's extracted from Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction—The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, 3rd edition but he was generous with the material from the book. The manual for the Mackie M-1400 amplifier is under https://mackie.com/en/support/discontinued-products; I think it's an entertaining read and it's nice to see detailed specs.

 

[Dave Away]

Why would anyone on ASR watch something from Andrew Robinson to begin with?


You should think twice about the YouTubers to watch instead.

With all my respects, I took him seriously after his review of The B&W 606 which was the subjectivist equivalent to the ASR take on the 607. He is a salesman but I do appreciate his subjectives ear as he tends in my opinion to match ASR rather than not, I also like his in between lines information. For example reviewing La Escala speakers he was clear that he loves them but their frequency respond was all over the place, on reviewing monitor audio Silver 100 he showed Frequency responds on his videos and praised their flatness. To be fair, if I went to an Audio Shop I rather find him than any other. Of course I would listen to Amirm over him but Amirm cannot review it all. In the absent of an ASR article, I would consider to carefully listen to any of his reviews before any What HIFI magazine review every day.

 

[restorer-john]

I propose a one month ban for a first offence ASR member who posts an Andrew Robinson video link.

Second offence is an automatic permanent ban with no appeal allowed.