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Chasing SINAD

Chromatischism

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Incredible setup. I may be just a smidge jealous.

What's your thought on the Audyssey XT32 room correction on the X3700H? I didn't expect to be so impressed at how well it works with my JBL S38ii's for correcting dips and peaks. I may have to tweak the treble a bit to have it roll off a bit more as it sounds a tad bright. I'd love to see the results on your setup. I'm curious if the room throws off the spectacularly tight FR tolerances of those speakers.
View attachment 92591

Oh, does anyone know what the -2.5dB dip @ 2K "mids correction" is for? I can disable it, but it was on by default.
I can't use a system that doesn't have XT32 and app control...it's that crucial to me. A system without good bass EQ and loudness compensation is nothing to me :p

As for Midrange Compensation, here's my best shot at explaining it. Unfortunately the app tells the thousands of users out there nothing about what this setting actually does.

Most speakers have drop in sound power in the crossover region between a tweeter and a woofer due mostly due to a change in directivity. There usually ends up being some "holes" off-axis and that loads the room (walls, etc) with less reflected energy there. Now, remember that all of Audyssey's (and in fact, all room EQ systems) measurements are based on the in-room response, meaning all of the reflections summing with the direct sound at the microphone. This is where you may see a small dip at the crossover even though the direct sound is flat by design. Look at Amir's predicted in-room measurements and you'll see a small dip around 2 kHz in many speakers. That's it! Midrange compensation is programmed into Audyssey in order to prevent the system from equalizing the in-room response to flat, because what it would actually be doing is boosting the direct sound there in a very sensitive range for our ears and that is often undesired. The choice of Midrange Compensation at 2 kHz won't work for all speakers. It is just an average and the actual crossover dip will vary from speaker to speaker. Feel free to draw your own, or disable it. There is no one-size-fits-all answer, but the best is to look at the actual anechoic measurements of your speaker, if they are available, to determine this.

In short, boosting that region on some speakers can result in harshness, so MRC is there to prevent the system from doing so.
 

Chromatischism

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I took the comment you responded to as meaning that a system of equal SQ (or equal SINAD) could be put together for less $$. And maybe so.

But if the OP is price-indifferent, then why not do what he did?
I’m not sure that’s true. No amp measured anywhere has lower SINAD than the Benchmark, and the MiniDSP SHD series are the best measuring components with Dirac that I’ve ever heard of. Plus, none of the electronic equipment is very expensive. ASR hasn’t measured the speakers, but based on available measurements and data, it seems unlikely that any speaker with lower distortion will cost less (if any such speaker exists).
It looks like what he's saying is that there are amps, DACs, etc that cost a lot less than the ones chosen here that will sound the same.
 

Robbo99999

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This has to be tongue-in-cheek, right? I believe everything in the system has been measured somewhere and has measured really well.
I took the comment you responded to as meaning that a system of equal SQ (or equal SINAD) could be put together for less $$. And maybe so.

But if the OP is price-indifferent, then why not do what he did?
Yep, that's right Wes, that's what I was getting at, more in relation to Sound Quality rather than SINAD as I don't think ultra high SINAD numbers make a difference past a certain point. I didn't like the side of it that money was wasted on components where you might have just been paying silly high money for the pursuit of a few extra SINAD. I don't know enough about the components in question to know if there are practical & tangible performance variables/values that he could have achieved by choosing more cost effective gear, but this was the impression I got based on the "Benchmark" name and the title of his thread. Sure, people can spend their money on what they like, and "waste" it too if that's what they wanna do, I just don't think components or systems should be idealised by the objective community if we know there is no tangible benefit to choosing overpriced overengineered products that we know do nothing to improve perceived sound quality above equally well performing (on a practical sound quality level) significantly more cost effective products. Part of the objective of this community is "removing the BS" around things "audiophile", and I see some elements of this system in this thread as being in the "BS category" in as much as ultra high SINAD numbers are immaterial. So I think it's good to get objectivity on it. Again, I don't know the detail of all his components so there might be some other practical and tangible benefits of his component choice that I'm not aware of and which couldn't be achieved by more cost effective (& equally beautiful?) components - but this is the impression I have. (P.S. I have no problem pursuing/manufacturing high SINAD products if they don't come at excessive cost, because I do believe the pursuit of good engineering is positive, but not at silly high costs.)
Hey, I called it "chasing SINAD" and didn't make any claims on the sound of the electronics (other than neutral- I will make that claim). I'm an engineer ,like supporting state of the art performance, and that's how I choose to spend my money.

Electronics cost is 21% of this system
Cable cost is 0.5% of this system (and there are a lot of cables)

Take a look at my living room system where I pursued high SINAD at lower cost, you can have good design for moderate cost.
Yes, so you're putting it in perspective. I still would think there were some components you could have swapped in that would be more cost effective, and perhaps just as beautiful whilst still retaining the same levels of practicality and perceivable sound quality.
 
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Colonel7

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Thought I’d share some photos of my main system In its latest iteration. I appreciate good engineering and have strived to optimize measurable performance hence the SINAD chasing.

Source : Yamaha WXC-50 in player mode with SPDIF out ( I tried Volumio in the SHD but think it’s not ready for prime time)
DSP: MiniDSP SHD studio for sub crossover and room correction below 500Hz
DAC: Okto DAC8 PRO
Amps: Dual Benchmark AHB2‘s in bridged mono
Speakers: Revel Salon 2’s
Subs: dual JL F113v2
cables are all Canare mostly self assembled with Neutrik connectors

For home theater I use a Denon 3700h using an ARX RS-1
@Robbo99999 it seems inappropriate to disapprove and admit you don’t know about the equipment in question at the same time. It helps no one.

@waynel congratulations on putting together a system that is both demonstrably transparent to the source and comparably inexpensive.
Amazing system @waynel !

I don't get the criticism either. I'm a cost-effectiveness person first and foremost but that is my OWN use case and circumstance. Others are different. Benchmark and Okto DAC8 are the top performers in category by measurements and can be argued that they are in fact very reasonably priced. SHD and WXC are also excellent and not breaking the bank. And Salon2 is the big brother and old lion that has not yet been bested by the M2 and the latest Revel Beryllium bunch that measure extremely well.

What's not to like besides the puny TV?;)
 
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waynel

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Yep, that's right Wes, that's what I was getting at, more in relation to Sound Quality rather than SINAD as I don't think ultra high SINAD numbers make a difference past a certain point. I didn't like the side of it that money was wasted on components where you might have just been paying silly high money for the pursuit of a few extra SINAD. I don't know enough about the components in question to know if there are practical & tangible performance variables/values that he could have achieved by choosing more cost effective gear, but this was the impression I got based on the "Benchmark" name and the title of his thread. Sure, people can spend their money on what they like, and "waste" it too if that's what they wanna do, I just don't think components or systems should be idealised by the objective community if we know there is no tangible benefit to choosing overpriced overengineered products that we know do nothing to improve perceived sound quality above equally well performing (on a practical sound quality level) significantly more cost effective products. Part of the objective of this community is "removing the BS" around things "audiophile", and I see some elements of this system in this thread as being in the "BS category" in as much as ultra high SINAD numbers are immaterial. So I think it's good to get objectivity on it. Again, I don't know the detail of all his components so there might be some other practical and tangible benefits of his component choice that I'm not aware of and which couldn't be achieved by more cost effective (& equally beautiful?) components - but this is the impression I have. (P.S. I have no problem pursuing/manufacturing high SINAD products if they don't come at excessive cost, because I do believe the pursuit of good engineering is positive, but not at silly high costs.)

Yes, so you're putting it in perspective. I still would think there were some components you could have swapped in that would be more cost effective, and perhaps just as beautiful whilst still retaining the same levels of practicality and perceivable sound quality.

I have 2 comments/suggestions:

1) If you are going to criticize my choice of electronics I think you should at least familiarize yourself with them, The AHB2 is the best amp measured here or elsewhere. The Okto DAC8 Pro is the best measuring dac with more than 2 channels (It has 8, I need 4 as I do my crossovers in the digital domain) and is not expensive
The MiniDSP SHD measures well and is the lowest priced option that does crossovers in the digital domain and has Dirac live ( One could argue that Dirac live is unnecessary, and I agree)

By going with Benchmark I also get bullet proof reliability , speaker protection , and excellent customer support


2) To answer your comment that one could get audibly transparent performance for less money, that is precisely what I tried to do in my living room system, perhaps it will be more to your taste:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...trusive-living-room-streaming-solution.17130/

Regards,
Wayne
 
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Robbo99999

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@Robbo99999 it seems inappropriate to disapprove and admit you don’t know about the equipment in question at the same time. It helps no one.
I see what you mean, it's an impression I have of parts of the system given the small bits I know about the brand "Benchmark" and the idea of "Chasing SINAD" at all cost...so I wanted to stimulate some conversation on it and perhaps for people with more experience of such components to jump in and say "well there's probably this or this that could have been used and would be $4000 cheaper but just as good for intents & purposes"....something along the lines of that. I know what you mean though, I was a bit harsh on it, but I still don't like all it represents. Speakers are a bit different, I can understand people paying maybe 10's of thousands on speakers (even though I wouldn't myself) as they're the most important part, and the part that is the weakest link most of the time. Nice system, but I don't think I like the ethos behind some of it.
 

Robbo99999

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I have 2 comments/suggestions:

1) If you are going to criticize my choice of electronics I think you should at least familiarize yourself with them, The AHB2 is the best amp measured here or elsewhere. The Okto DAC8 Pro is the best measuring dac with more than 2 channels (It has 8, I need 4 as I do my crossovers in the digital domain) and is not expensive
The MiniDSP SHD measures well and is the lowest priced option that does crossovers in the digital domain and has Dirac live ( One could argue that Dirac live is unnecessary

By going with Benchmark I also get bullet proof reliability , speaker protection , and excellent customer support


2) To answer your comment that one could get audibly transparent performance for less money, that is precisely what I tried to do in my living room system, perhaps it will be more to your taste:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...trusive-living-room-streaming-solution.17130/

Regards,
Wayne
I suppose I should indeed familiarise myself with the specifics of them if I'm gonna criticise, I didn't have time this morning, and I'm a bit too lazy to research them right now, and also a bit time short. No, but I wanted stimulate some conversation around the impression I had of your system in terms of "chasing SINAD" at all cost....I still don't know for sure if my impression was right or not, but I was hoping some folks that know about the specifics of your component's would be able to confirm or deny my impressions. I did say it was a high quality system that would likely sound good & indeed looks good, so I wasn't really sh*tting all over your system. I do like the ethos behind more economical great sound though with a bit more of a balanced attitude towards SINAD, so that's probably why I commented in the first place.
 

Wes

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Wayne, did you buy a Umik mic?

If so, can you post the curves?
 
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waynel

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Wayne, did you buy a Umik mic?

If so, can you post the curves?
I can do that next time I run Dirac. Here is the response of the main speakers from a few months ago using ARC genesis. As you can see the Salon 2s extended below 20Hz in room.

no subs.JPG
 
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waynel

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dwkdnvr

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Very nice system - aside from maybe the JL subs, I might make the same choices if I had that kind of budget. I have to admit - the idea of running the SHD outputs to the Okto never occurred to me, but is a pretty good idea. Do you use the SHD for volume control, or the Okto? I run the main outputs of my SHD to a Sabaj D5 and run the subs straight from the SHD output; not really sure the D5 is doing anything to improve things, but since I have it I might as well use it.

In terms of the idea that there might be a cheaper way to achieve a comparable system, it really is the speakers that drive the lion's share of the price here. Aside from the speakers, the only things I can imagine changing in this system are
- swap the Benchmarks for Purifi
- drop the Okto and just run from the SHD, or use a $3-500 DAC on the main outputs and run the subs from the SHD

So, IMHO really nothing to criticize too heavily as being out of place, and you can maybe trim 4-5k at most off the price via electronics if using a single stereo Purifi (although closer to 3k if you want monobloc Purifi amps). Speakers are where you could save some money, but they're also the domain that is least accurately represented via measurements so it's tough to say where the compromises start to be significant and then there is the whole aesthetic question to consider. Going with say 328BE + 2x Rythmik subs (L22, FV15 etc) would save you some money, but it's tough to say that it's going to be comparable.

I like to think that my system is kinda/sorta a lower budget/lower output version assembled according to the same philosophy.

- Kef R3
- 2 x Rythmik FM8
- Neurochrome Mod 86 (I have a Parallel 86 to be assembled, but might just go Purifi)
- MiniDSP SHD
- Sabaj D5 feeding the Neurochrome
- Squeezebox Touch

This system runs a bit over $6k, or somewhere under 20% of the list price of Wayne's system if my math is right. Mine won't play anywhere near as loud, or fill a large room. For a small-ish room though, it's pretty good on the ASR scale - all of these are top-ranked performers (aside from the subs which haven't been tested). Even here though, you can probably squeeze and come up with a somewhat cheaper but still 'ASR-approved' system. Revel M105 (1500 list, but probably closer to 1100 through a dealer from what I can tell), SVS subs ($500 ea) for example saves you about half the speaker budget. Electronics and room correction / sub integration are the problems - we still haven't seen a true high performance 'budget friendly' version of that. The Denon x3600 is probably the best so far, but is a step behind in objective performance and you give up a fair bit of flexibility vs the SHD. The SHD + Hypex may be a better approach if the budget can cover ~$1500.
 
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waynel

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Very nice system - aside from maybe the JL subs, I might make the same choices if I had that kind of budget. I have to admit - the idea of running the SHD outputs to the Okto never occurred to me, but is a pretty good idea. Do you use the SHD for volume control, or the Okto? I run the main outputs of my SHD to a Sabaj D5 and run the subs straight from the SHD output; not really sure the D5 is doing anything to improve things, but since I have it I might as well use it.

In terms of the idea that there might be a cheaper way to achieve a comparable system, it really is the speakers that drive the lion's share of the price here. Aside from the speakers, the only things I can imagine changing in this system are
- swap the Benchmarks for Purifi
- drop the Okto and just run from the SHD, or use a $3-500 DAC on the main outputs and run the subs from the SHD

So, IMHO really nothing to criticize too heavily as being out of place, and you can maybe trim 4-5k at most off the price via electronics if using a single stereo Purifi (although closer to 3k if you want monobloc Purifi amps). Speakers are where you could save some money, but they're also the domain that is least accurately represented via measurements so it's tough to say where the compromises start to be significant and then there is the whole aesthetic question to consider. Going with say 328BE + 2x Rythmik subs (L22, FV15 etc) would save you some money, but it's tough to say that it's going to be comparable.

I like to think that my system is kinda/sorta a lower budget/lower output version assembled according to the same philosophy.

- Kef R3
- 2 x Rythmik FM8
- Neurochrome Mod 86 (I have a Parallel 86 to be assembled, but might just go Purifi)
- MiniDSP SHD
- Sabaj D5 feeding the Neurochrome
- Squeezebox Touch

This system runs a bit over $6k, or somewhere under 20% of the list price of Wayne's system if my math is right. Mine won't play anywhere near as loud, or fill a large room. For a small-ish room though, it's pretty good on the ASR scale - all of these are top-ranked performers (aside from the subs which haven't been tested). Even here though, you can probably squeeze and come up with a somewhat cheaper but still 'ASR-approved' system. Revel M105 (1500 list, but probably closer to 1100 through a dealer from what I can tell), SVS subs ($500 ea) for example saves you about half the speaker budget. Electronics and room correction / sub integration are the problems - we still haven't seen a true high performance 'budget friendly' version of that. The Denon x3600 is probably the best so far, but is a step behind in objective performance and you give up a fair bit of flexibility vs the SHD. The SHD + Hypex may be a better approach if the budget can cover ~$1500.

I use the Okto as the volume control and the SHD just for room correction and crossover. I like your ideas , for a cheaper version you could use an SHD directly into a purifi or hypex amp. My living room system uses another wxc-50, a nanoDigi, two cheap SMLS DACs and a hypex amp . Total retail price for electronics under $1500 and I bought some of it used.
 

NTomokawa

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Source : Yamaha WXC-50 in player mode with SPDIF out ( I tried Volumio in the SHD but think it’s not ready for prime time)
DSP: MiniDSP SHD studio for sub crossover and room correction below 500Hz
DAC: Okto DAC8 PRO
Amps: Dual Benchmark AHB2‘s in bridged mono
Speakers: Revel Salon 2’s
Subs: dual JL F113v2
cables are all Canare mostly self assembled with Neutrik connectors
A high-end yet objectivity-based setup? And non-snake oil, DIY cables? Goodness, this is what the audio world needs more of!

Enjoy the music!
 
D

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I see what you mean, it's an impression I have of parts of the system given the small bits I know about the brand "Benchmark" and the idea of "Chasing SINAD" at all cost...so I wanted to stimulate some conversation on it and perhaps for people with more experience of such components to jump in and say "well there's probably this or this that could have been used and would be $4000 cheaper but just as good for intents & purposes"....something along the lines of that. I know what you mean though, I was a bit harsh on it, but I still don't like all it represents. Speakers are a bit different, I can understand people paying maybe 10's of thousands on speakers (even though I wouldn't myself) as they're the most important part, and the part that is the weakest link most of the time. Nice system, but I don't think I like the ethos behind some of it.

I don't think you were harsh at all. I quite agree. There is a disconnect between patting ourselves on the back for being objectivists, and then adding superflous components to a system in order to gain a miniscule increase in SINAD with no audible benefit.

I'm also personally not a big fan of the gear fetishist 'post pictures of your system' threads. I have no problem with anyone spending their money however they want. Let's just keep things in perspective. We are now trying to gain prestige online amongst measurement fanatics the same way audiophiles do with their gear.

I am sure it is a wonderful sounding system. Was adding a second DAC/preamp to the chain neccesary to improve the sound of this system? Pragmatically speaking, no...but the OP was upfront about what his goals were, and made no false claims, so there is no problem there.
 
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waynel

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I don't think you were harsh at all. I quite agree. There is a disconnect between patting ourselves on the back for being objectivists, and then adding superflous components to a system in order to gain a miniscule increase in SINAD with no audible benefit.

I'm also personally not a big fan of the gear fetishist 'post pictures of your system' threads. I have no problem with anyone spending their money however they want. Let's just keep things in perspective. We are now trying to gain prestige online amongst measurement fanatics the same way audiophiles do with their gear.

I am sure it is a wonderful sounding system. Was adding a second DAC/preamp to the chain neccesary to improve the sound of this system? Pragmatically speaking, no...but the OP was upfront about what his goals were, and made no false claims, so there is no problem there.
What second dac? There is one dac , there is no preamp
 
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What second dac? There is one dac , there is no preamp
the yamaha streamer has a dac and is a preamplifier. The okto8 is a dac/digital preamp. Minidsp I am not familiar with the 'studio' designation, but if it is similiar to the other products it has DAC and preamp function.
 
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