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Chasing SINAD on the Cheap

pozz

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Inspired by @waynel's straightforward perfect system.

Challenge is to replicate the performance or get nearest to it. Like any good challenge, I think some parameters have to be hit or, you know, someone will nail it with an all-in-one integrated and two bookshelves:
  • Two main speakers and two subs.
  • Four independent channels (so no splitting) for mains and subs.
  • Room correction able to handle each channel independently.
  • Streaming.
  • Optional (but admirable): balanced interconnects, high SPL and passive mains.
Name each piece of gear, its purpose and price. The assumption is that commercially available components will be chosen (to keep it "fair"), but if you're a DIY wizard please feel free to lay waste :p
 
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pozz

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dwkdnvr

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I'll recap my system from that thread, which I think is fairly high-value but probably a bit closer to 'midrange' pricing rather than really 'on the cheap' (all prices in USD retail, and in my case I actually purchased most of this new which is unusual for me)

- Kef R3 main speakers ($2k)
- 2x Rythmik FM8 subs ($2200 in piano black)
- Neurochrome Mod-86 driving Kefs ($350 used/assembled from diyaudio.com, but a ground-up build isn't far from that)
- MiniDSP SHD ($1100) (crossover, eq, room correction)
- Sabaj D5 ($500) (D/A for the mains; not essential)
- Squeezebox Receiver (from existing stock)

So, $6150, or $5650 if you drop the D5 which isn't technically needed but was unused and made it easier to balance levels. The Mod-86 was a lucky score, but might be a bit shy on power. I have all the pieces for a Parallel-86 build but it's languished for a while, and at this point I may just get a VTV Purifi amp if I can scrounge up the $$$.

I've only had this system together for a short time since we recently moved and I had to re-invent things. The FM8s are the most recent addition and are fantastic, turning this into IMHO a completely satisfying system for music if you can live within the output level limitations. Everything here scores very well on ASR test metrics (the FM8s haven't been tested, but I'm comfortable concluding that their performance is very competitive within their output limitations)

I'm definitely interested to see other takes on this idea. Based on my system, it's easy to see how to save a bit on speakers (Revel M105, SVS or cheaper Rythmik subs), but other than the Denon x3600 I'm not really sure what electronic package is out there to serve as the 'budget' solution. I guess for Music only, a Motu M4 + Hypex MP amp sourced from a PC would work for ~750 (not counting the PC cost)
 
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pozz

pozz

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Perfection nonetheless:)

Another name for this thread could be: "Examples of Practical System Builds"
 

MZKM

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  • Two main speakers and two subs.
  • Four independent channels (so no splitting) for mains and subs.
  • Room correction able to handle each channel independently.
  • Streaming.
  • Optional (but admirable): balanced interconnects, high SPL and passive mains.
We can argue speakers till the cows come home, but, for a ”cheap” system that fulfills the requirements:

Denon X3600/X3700 + $20 Audysssy app
2x Rythmik LV12F: $1140 for the pair

A contender for a ”cheap” speaker is the ELAC DFR52 tower at $1200/pair. We know how good the DBR62 is, well this is 1dB more sensitive, can handle ~15% more wattage, and it likely will measure better as it is using 5.25” woofers instead of a 6.5” (better directivity matching).
 
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Alexanderc

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I’ve been trying to plan/budget for a system like this for the past year or so. I think the speakers are the sticking point where price is concerned. If the only considerations are lowest possible THD+N, there are lots of electronics that can get you there for a few hundred dollars (brand new at full MSRP), but really good measuring floorstanding speakers or bookshelves with subs could easily quadruple the budget.

Buying used and being flexible about the exact products you get would obviously make a big difference.
 
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pozz

pozz

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really good measuring floorstanding speakers or bookshelves with subs could easily quadruple the budget
I know what you mean.

It's too bad Rythmik only has a presence in the US. I have been eyeing their subs for a long time now, but to import them across the border to Canada will up the cost considerably.
 

Biblob

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Inspired by @waynel's straightforward perfect system.

Challenge is to replicate the performance or get nearest to it. Like any good challenge, I think some parameters have to be hit or, you know, someone will nail it with an all-in-one integrated and two bookshelves:
  • Two main speakers and two subs.
  • Four independent channels (so no splitting) for mains and subs.
  • Room correction able to handle each channel independently.
  • Streaming.
  • Optional (but admirable): balanced interconnects, high SPL and passive mains.
Name each piece of gear, its purpose and price. The assumption is that commercially available components will be chosen (to keep it "fair"), but if you're a DIY wizard please feel free to lay waste :p
This is exactly what my long-lasting DIY route is meant to be.

So I'm DIY'ing two sattelites + two subs (drivers: SB17NBAC + SB26ADC in WG, sub = CSS SDX10 in a 22L closed box)

Driving them via:
Microformfactor Dell PC with Windows --> Equalizer APO (probably later upgrade to Audiolense or Acourate) --> Asus Xonar U7 for 6 channels--> satellites will be powered via a hometheater amp (secondhand old Sony) and subs driven bij Crown XLS 2002.

This way I can play everything via that miniPC. It will be a lot of tinkering to get the setup working right, but in the end it's one of the cheaper ways to get the highest performance in a room for a relatively low budget. In total this costs me around €1000.

P.S. will show the setup when it's done :)
 

andreasmaaan

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@pozz I reckon this might be more fun if you set a budget limit ;) Or perhaps some budget classes?

(The lower the better :cool:)
 
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pozz

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@pozz I reckon this might be more fun if you set a budget limit ;) Or perhaps some budget classes?

(The lower the better :cool:)
Hmm.

Ok.

Best possible system for the following budgets (USD, but if you creatively use local currency to pull some magic, the more power to you):
  • $50 (seriously)
  • $100
  • $250
  • $500
  • $1k
  • $2k
  • $5k
  • $10k
  • $20k (for the aspiring plutarchs)
 

dwkdnvr

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I know what you mean.

It's too bad Rythmik only has a presence in the US. I have been eyeing their subs for a long time now, but to import them across the border to Canada will up the cost considerably.
Unfortunately, I have to say that the FM8s have been eye-openers for me. I had a pair of RSS390HF-4 subs from our old theater space in use originally, and they were ok-ish but clearly needed a serious round of REW/Dirac. Dropped in the Rythmik subs and with only basic level and xover point tuning they just immediately sounded fantastic - deep, punchy, articulate in a way that the HT subs never approached. I 'know' that there shouldn't be that much difference in a bandwidth-limited device, but the subjective difference was remarkable, but I haven't yet taken any measurements to begin to formulate a theory as to why.
 
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pozz

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Unfortunately, I have to say that the FM8s have been eye-openers for me. I had a pair of RSS390HF-4 subs from our old theater space in use originally, and they were ok-ish but clearly needed a serious round of REW/Dirac. Dropped in the Rythmik subs and with only basic level and xover point tuning they just immediately sounded fantastic - deep, punchy, articulate in a way that the HT subs never approached. I 'know' that there shouldn't be that much difference in a bandwidth-limited device, but the subjective difference was remarkable, but I haven't yet taken any measurements to begin to formulate a theory as to why.
I think in the bass region there is simply nothing better than quick decays. In a lot of full-range loudspeakers IIRC the woofer wails for 200ms or longer before completely settling. No way of getting around that other than with servos.

But the real answer might just be smooth FR.
 
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MZKM

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drivers: SB17NBAC + SB26ADC in WG
Tweeter:
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/sbacoustics/sb-acoustics-sb26adc-c000-4
Pretty neutral, good sensitivity and power handling. Good dispersion with ok width. 2nd harmonic distortion below 1% @ 100dB from 2kHz and up.

Woofer:
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/sbacoustics/sb-acoustics-sb17nbac35-8
Neutral, ok sensitivity and power handling. Beams after 1500Hz (I guess that’s what the waveguide is for). Good distortion (uses 50Hz & 80Hz crossovers depending on level).
 

dwkdnvr

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It'd be fun.

The world's cheapest DAC is $2, after all.

Well, I don't really think your price tiers line up with your original post. Your original post specified a speaker-based system with dual independent subs + eq/room correction assembled to achieve reasonable measured SINAD. That's simply not something that is viable with off-the-shelf components at your lower price tiers. Even DIY-ish it's really tough to do under $500 if you want to use components that measure reasonably well by ASR standards. e.g PC + Motu M4 + LSR305 + cheap subs = $700 or so not counting the PC.

So, 'cheapest possible system that sounds good/measures reasonably well' seems to be a bit different than your original post which might be phrased 'budget-concious multi-sub systems that achieve good ASR scores'.
 

andreasmaaan

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$50 (seriously)

Creative Pebble Plus 2.1 + EQ with laptop as source using EQ APO (or similar): $28.40

If software EQ is against the rules, add one of these for $19.90 plus some wire and a couple of the cheapest connectors (which I think the remaining $1.80 would cover).

I haven't measured the Pebble Plus, but I have measured the older Gigaworks T3 (now out of production) and it measures well enough that, with a small amount of EQ (mostly in the subwoofer's passband, where you want to EQ anyway) it's possible to have a neutral speaker system with quite low distortion, 50Hz-20kHz (+/-3dB) performance, and reasonably smooth off-axis response, the main drawback being that your bass is mono below 200Hz.

A bit of an unknown though as I'm just guessing that the Pebble is vaguely comparable to older Creative stuff.
 

Wes

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$50 says iPhone and use the its builtin DAC; maybe headphones for speakers?
 
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pozz

pozz

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Creative Pebble Plus 2.1 + EQ with laptop as source using EQ APO (or similar): $28.40

If software EQ is against the rules, add one of these for $19.90 plus some wire and a couple of the cheapest connectors (which I think the remaining $1.80 would cover).

I haven't measured the Pebble Plus, but I have measured the older Gigaworks T3 (now out of production) and it measures well enough that, with a small amount of EQ (mostly in the subwoofer's passband, where you want to EQ anyway) it's possible to have a neutral speaker system with quite low distortion, 50Hz-20kHz (+/-3dB) performance, and reasonably smooth off-axis response, the main drawback being that your bass is mono below 200Hz.

A bit of an unknown though as I'm just guessing that the Pebble is vaguely comparable to older Creative stuff.
There are the Gigaworks T20/T40 measured. Not exactly sure of the price, though.

I think software EQ is within the parameters. A computer is a sure way to sort of, kind of drop price, if you consider it a "miscellaneous" expense.

@Vasr How did the computer pre/pro work out?
 

Harmonie

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Creative Pebble Plus 2.1 + EQ with laptop as source using EQ APO (or similar): $28.40

If software EQ is against the rules, add one of these for $19.90 plus some wire and a couple of the cheapest connectors (which I think the remaining $1.80 would cover).

I haven't measured the Pebble Plus, but I have measured the older Gigaworks T3 (now out of production) and it measures well enough that, with a small amount of EQ (mostly in the subwoofer's passband, where you want to EQ anyway) it's possible to have a neutral speaker system with quite low distortion, 50Hz-20kHz (+/-3dB) performance, and reasonably smooth off-axis response, the main drawback being that your bass is mono below 200Hz.

A bit of an unknown though as I'm just guessing that the Pebble is vaguely comparable to older Creative stuff.

Is the target to be just cheap or having the best SINAD in it's category ?

There should be a minimum SQ/Sinad value, no ?
 
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