Change my Neumann KH120’s?

[dickiefunk]

Hi,

At the moment I’m using a pair of Neumann KH120’s for mixing in a small home recording studio. My room is a slightly odd L shape which isn’t ideal but I’ve had to build a vocal booth,
Here is a photo of the room



The KH120’s have generally been really good speakers for mixing though not perfect. I also have an Eve TS108 sub which is really good but I can’t get it to perfectly integrate with the KH120’s. I do find the sub useful for checking sub frequencies and for impressing clients However, I can’t get away from the fact that I can hear certain room mode build up at various frequencies.
As a result, I’m considering selling my KH120”s and Eve TS108 and picking one these options
This is what considering :-

-1: Neumann KH120

-2: Neumann KH150

-3: Present Day Productions M.U.M. 6

what would you recommend!s

 

[tifune]

Please post measurements from main listening position

Taking and Interpreting Measurements with REW (FREE eBook)

A few years ago, Amir wrote Room Measurement Tutorial for Dummies Part 1 and Part 2. The third part has never materialized despite many requests. In the meantime, there is a clear need for clear guide on how to take room measurements because we are seeing more and more people take and post their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[stoneeh]

Change your Neumann KH120’s what?

 

[DVDdoug]

However, I can’t get away from the fact that I can hear certain room mode build up at various frequencies.

Your speakers excite the room modes but they don't cause them. A lot of "home audio engineers" choose small speakers to avoid bass problems but hiding the problem isn't really a solution.

Bass traps or multiple subs in different locations can help as long as the room modes are in the range of the subwoofers (sometimes they are higher in frequency).

Another work-around is to use headphones for your final bass check.

Your monitors don't have to be perfect as long as you know what a good mix sounds like on them. But you probably do need a good subwoofer to get anything like "realistic" bass from a bass guitar or kick drum. ...And perhaps bigger monitors because some of the bass you feel in your body is higher than the usual 80Hz crossover frequency.

 

[Liftro]

Hi, why not just change the subwoofer? You could buy a dedicated Neumann subwoofer, like the KH750 with the Neumann MA1, and get DSP and seamless integration with your monitors. Plus, you'll get room correction. I used to have the KH120A with the KH750 and some room treatment, and it worked great. The sound was very good to my ears for mixing decisions.

 

[dickiefunk]

Please post measurements from main listening position

Taking and Interpreting Measurements with REW (FREE eBook)

A few years ago, Amir wrote Room Measurement Tutorial for Dummies Part 1 and Part 2. The third part has never materialized despite many requests. In the meantime, there is a clear need for clear guide on how to take room measurements because we are seeing more and more people take and post their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I don’t have a measurement mic at the moment and have been reluctant to buy one because if I went with the KH120 mk2 or KH150 I would buy the MA1 system to go with it.

 

[dickiefunk]

Hi, why not just change the subwoofer? You could buy a dedicated Neumann subwoofer, like the KH750 with the Neumann MA1, and get DSP and seamless integration with your monitors. Plus, you'll get room correction. I used to have the KH120A with the KH750 and some room treatment, and it worked great. The sound was very good to my ears for mixing decisions.

I have also considered going the KH750 route but am wondering if a sub is too much for my room for accurate mixing.

 

[dickiefunk]

Your speakers excite the room modes but they don't cause them. A lot of "home audio engineers" choose small speakers to avoid bass problems but hiding the problem isn't really a solution.

Bass traps or multiple subs in different locations can help as long as the room modes are in the range of the subwoofers (sometimes they are higher in frequency).

Another work-around is to use headphones for your final bass check.

Your monitors don't have to be perfect as long as you know what a good mix sounds like on them. But you probably do need a good subwoofer to get anything like "realistic" bass from a bass guitar or kick drum. ...And perhaps bigger monitors because some of the bass you feel in your body is higher than the usual 80Hz crossover frequency.

I also use headphones for checking my mixes.
I agree that getting to know how your monitors translate by referencing with great mixes.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I do not know anything about mixing or mastering. Accurate Frequency response remains the goal for a speaker system. When any subwoofer is added to a speaker system and the integration is correct then the system just provide those goals: Accurate and extended FR. Aside from issues of logistics , for example trying to shove s psir of KH870 in the room.. You can make it sound correct but ... Else, really any Neumann subwoofer in combination with the KH120 can only make the audio system better, that is provided you understand the MA-1 and make it work to the benefit of your system.
This said, 705 or 805 will benefit you. You could put a pair if you wanted to

 

[Liftro]

Also, before selling or buying another set of equipment, why not try changing your listening position? I understand it's quite a bit of work, but you could try other configurations. The window behind the speakers is probably causing some problems, and the subwoofer under the desk is likely making it vibrate. All these things ultimately affect your listening experience.

 

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately this layout is the best fit for the shape and size of my room.
Because of the subs location I’m wondering if I would be better without one?

 

[respice finem]

I have also considered going the KH750 route but am wondering if a sub is too much for my room for accurate mixing.

Understandable, but, the DSP built into it will not allow "being too much". OTOH it cannot do magic, so optimizing the hearing position is a good advice.
You will need the sub, the MA-1 (see below), and an interface (which you have).

MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

Neumann’s Automatic Monitor Alignment MA 1 ensures the best possible sound quality in any room – from home studios to professional control rooms. Using the individually calibrated measurement microphone your acoustic environment is analyzed in a guided process.

www.neumann.com

There are other options, like Genelec SAM, but these will be bigger than your KH.

 

[Liftro]

Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately this layout is the best fit for the shape and size of my room.
Because of the subs location I’m wondering if I would be better without one?

In my personal experience, I've gone from not having a subwoofer to having one, and then back to using only speakers, and I can assure you that I don't want to live without one. All of this, of course, if it's well integrated. I'm also a big fan of DSP room correction. In my case, it was like walking through fog without correction, and with correction, seeing things with all the details that were previously hidden, if you can call it that. But ultimately, it all depends on how much money you want or can spend. Sometimes small changes can make a big difference, and sometimes they don't. The best or most expensive equipment doesn't always solve everything. I've been down this road, and it's very deceptive.

 

[respice finem]

Another option - integrate the existing sub properly via DSP - but this won't be automatic and carries a "learning curve".

 

[LTig]

I have also considered going the KH750 route but am wondering if a sub is too much for my room for accurate mixing.

No, DSP will handle it. That said: I added a KH750 to a pair of Genelec 8020a in a similar small room and am very happy with it, without room EQ.

 

[dickiefunk]

Ive considered picking up an IK ARC Studio box but my sub already has conversion built into it for the dsp and then the ARC Studio also has conversion built into it all before I reach the converters in my audio interface. I’m not keen on having three stages of conversion going into my speakers along with the latency added.

 

[Liftro]

If I were you, I'd suggest one thing. If you've already tried other positions and the one you have is the best, then it depends on where you live see if you can order a KH750 subwoofer with the MA1 from Thomann, and try it in your room. If you're not satisfied, you have 30 days to return it and get a refund. That way, at least you can test the room correction and use a subwoofer that integrates perfectly with your existing speakers. This will help you decide if you really need a subwoofer and what the room correction is capable of in your room. You can do the same by ordering just the KH150s if you think you need larger speakers and testing them without a subwoofer. It's a bit of a hassle, but this way you can experience firsthand what works best for you.

 

[Liftro]

Ive considered picking up an IK ARC Studio box but my sub already has conversion built into it for the dsp and then the ARC Studio also has conversion built into it all before I reach the converters in my audio interface. I’m not keen on having three stages of conversion going into my speakers along with the latency added.

You can try it. It's certainly the cheapest solution.

 

[Jimi Floyd]

I would suggest the KH750 + MA-1. If room modes are a problem now, DRC is the best way to solve it instead of filling the room with absorbers and bass traps.

 

[dickiefunk]

If I were you, I'd suggest one thing. If you've already tried other positions and the one you have is the best, then it depends on where you live see if you can order a KH750 subwoofer with the MA1 from Thomann, and try it in your room. If you're not satisfied, you have 30 days to return it and get a refund. That way, at least you can test the room correction and use a subwoofer that integrates perfectly with your existing speakers. This will help you decide if you really need a subwoofer and what the room correction is capable of in your room. You can do the same by ordering just the KH150s if you think you need larger speakers and testing them without a subwoofer. It's a bit of a hassle, but this way you can experience firsthand what works best for you.

Yes this is good advice. However, I was hoping to go secondhand as I’ve seen the KH750 go for as low as £700-£800 secondhand.