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CEntrance Hifi-M8 V2 Review (DAC and headphone amplifier)

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amirm

amirm

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Thread Starter #181
Amir's listening tests are not reliable in any way in my view. He just maxes out the volume and judges if he hears distortions. :facepalm:
Well thanks a lot. :( You want us to listen to your listening tests but put no value on mine? I am a trained listener. A mechanic can often tell instantly what is wrong with your engine by listening to it. But with no training, you cannot, no matter how long you listen. My training allows me to hear artifacts that you may not at all be able to hear -- but someone else may.
 
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Thread Starter #182
That is why I always judge the differences in sound in a long term.
Bad for you then. Controlled tests have no requirement for time limit. You can listen for a year if you want. You just have to not know what you are listening to.

I say bad for you above because this theory has been tested and proven to not help audiophiles hear differences. See my AES paper digest:
Sensitivity and Reliability of ABX Blind Testing

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ity-and-reliability-of-abx-blind-testing.186/

1606243534672.png


Let me save you a lot of energy and tell you to not keep going this path in this forum. We know your arguments. They are fallacious. We can demonstrate them concretely per above. Just like medical research, proper listening tests are critical to validity of of audio research. This is why there are protocols to do things right. And dismissal of everything else.

If you go by your personal opinion of what is wrong with you instead of going to a doctor, then by all means, dismiss audio science. I don't know what you do in your profession so perhaps you think anyone on the Internet can have a more valid opinion about your area of profession without any experience or training there. But it is not how we act in this forum. We follow the science as we do in other walks of life.
 

AudioSceptic

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I agree that level matching is important for A-B tests. Even the slightest change in volume can make a noticeable difference in the perception of sound. That is why long-term evaluations only.

My wrong. I was quick to suppose a link between what modern science says and what believers in measurements say.
Could elaborate on that last para? I'm not sure what you are saying. Thanks.
 
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Well thanks a lot. :( You want us to listen to your listening tests but put no value on mine? I am a trained listener. A mechanic can often tell instantly what is wrong with your engine by listening to it. But with no training, you cannot, no matter how long you listen. My training allows me to hear artifacts that you may not at all be able to hear -- but someone else may.
When did I say anything about "listening to my listening tests"? You are jumping on a non-existent fence. I am not raining on your parade, Amir. Just reminding some bashers here who compare this product to smartphones that specs are not music. The rest I have described in my disclaimer above.

When you say that you are a trained listener I recall you had admitted that you do not hear a difference in how music sounds on multibit vs regular sigma-delta DACs.
 
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Could elaborate on that last para? I'm not sure what you are saying. Thanks.
I mean that I take Amir as an engineer who uses modern science. And when I see that Amir's recommendations are clearly not supported by what I personally hear I deduce that science must be wrong in some way in my personal case.
 

SIY

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So, you won’t even consider the possibility that your uncontrolled perception is mistaken? I wish I had your level of self-confidence.
 

NTomokawa

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I mean it's either that or ReAlien has alien golden ears level of hearing...
 

AudioSceptic

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Bad for you then. Controlled tests have no requirement for time limit. You can listen for a year if you want. You just have to not know what you are listening to.

I say bad for you above because this theory has been tested and proven to not help audiophiles hear differences. See my AES paper digest:
Sensitivity and Reliability of ABX Blind Testing

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ity-and-reliability-of-abx-blind-testing.186/

View attachment 95609

Let me save you a lot of energy and tell you to not keep going this path in this forum. We know your arguments. They are fallacious. We can demonstrate them concretely per above. Just like medical research, proper listening tests are critical to validity of of audio research. This is why there are protocols to do things right. And dismissal of everything else.

If you go by your personal opinion of what is wrong with you instead of going to a doctor, then by all means, dismiss audio science. I don't know what you do in your profession so perhaps you think anyone on the Internet can have a more valid opinion about your area of profession without any experience or training there. But it is not how we act in this forum. We follow the science as we do in other walks of life.
Thanks for that, and I love the name 'Southeastern Michigan Woofer and Tweeter Marching Society".
 

AudioSceptic

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I mean that I take Amir as an engineer who uses modern science. And when I see that Amir's recommendations are clearly not supported by what I personally hear I deduce that science must be wrong in some way in my personal case.
Thanks. That is what I suspected but wanted to be sure. Do you not find it strange that what works so well and is indeed an essential part of many other fields of knowledge, somehow does not work for audio?
 
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Thanks. That is what I suspected but wanted to be sure. Do you not find it strange that what works so well and is indeed an essential part of many other fields of knowledge, somehow does not work for audio?
No, I don't. When it comes to personal experiences and the ways our brains work there might be a lot of terra incognita still. Having been listening to a DAC with binaural DSP for the last year, I hardened my views on the subject.
 
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amirm

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Thread Starter #191
When you say that you are a trained listener I recall you had admitted that you do not hear a difference in how music sounds on multibit vs regular sigma-delta DACs.
And you do? I don't see unicorns either. If you do, that makes you believe in fantasies, not me being blind.
 

NTomokawa

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with binaural DSP
Yes because you're adding signal processing to your audio.
hear a difference in how music sounds on multibit vs regular sigma-delta DACs
There is no such difference, at least if both devices measure below any audible limits.
 
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Thread Starter #193
I mean that I take Amir as an engineer who uses modern science. And when I see that Amir's recommendations are clearly not supported by what I personally hear I deduce that science must be wrong in some way in my personal case.
My recommendations are science based. They don't support experiments that are not science based. Don't mix domains. An atheist won't do much good proving God doesn't exist by swearing on a bible.

Your brain fabricates experiences that are not real with ease. It is who we are. It is what makes us human. We use instrumentation to measure things to avoid this problem. And controlled testing to extract useful data out of a brain and ears. Without it, you are believing in fantasies in audio.
 

The Jniac

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My evaluations are done by my ears only. But my experience shows that double-blind testing is as much a way to avoid a placebo as it is a way to welcome one. This can be checked by listening to the same sound without any changes — on many occasions, each time it would sound a bit different to your ears-brains. Sometimes wildly different. That is why I always judge the differences in sound in a long term. Getting used to one sound during several days and then changing it to another and giving myself enough time to find out the differences in familiar records. Simple A-B tests are not reliable in many cases.
You cannot accurately judge sonic differences over the long term. Human memory is too unreliable for that, and the human perceptual system is designed to detect changes in stimuli, and becomes increasingly unresponsive to unchanging stimuli. Besides, AB tests are indeed not that useful, which is why the standard is ABX tests, where the subject has to identify which of the two knowns (the A and the B) are the same as the unknown (the X).

I admit that I have not read much literature about psychoacoustics and I tell only about my personal experiences.
You should definitely go and do some reading then. Being better informed leads to better decisions, and makes you much harder for snakeoil salesmen to con.
 

The Jniac

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That explains why I fall asleep with my headphones on and turned up. :p
Neural attenuation is a hell of a thing. For example, you probably do not notice that you can feel your clothes, although you might now that I have pointed it out ;)
 

Billy Budapest

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No, it's not. During whole ordeal with this, I was dealing with Michael directly. Not some guy. He was very, very active on headfi at the time. I didn't want call him out directly. All of my correspondence was with him and him alone because he was highly involved . He was the only spokesperson on headfi and claim he designed the product himself. Before you go on a rant, maybe you should try to reaching out to me directly before making ill informed comments. Also have no idea who or what the company is now, as this was many years ago. My comments were accurate and true!!
Were these comments addressed to me? The “some rant” and “ill informed” comments appear to be directed toward another forum member’s post but I can’t figure out who.
 

SIY

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I just want to see their data. :cool: It's something that would take them literally a minute to send on (since they're unwilling to post), but somehow it's become a major drawn-out process.
 
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Thread Starter #199
- We were told Amir was planning to send his unit to us on Monday. We are anxiously waiting to test that on our side to make sure something in it is not out of wack.
I dropped it off earlier today. It is due on Monday to you I think because of the holidays this week.

What audio analyzer do you have by the way? How did you get the number for THD+N that you have on your site?
 
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Were these comments addressed to me? The “some rant” and “ill informed” comments appear to be directed toward another forum member’s post but I can’t figure out who.
Yes, you. And yes when you start a post quoting someone with "I gotta respond", and then go off on a rant, then yes that is a rant. And also, making the comments in your post without knowing the whole story is the definition of being ill informed. So I'm done with this.
 
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