Center speaker advice: Is timbre matching real?

[MattHooper]

View attachment 489414

Is that….a bed?

 

[antcollinet]

No offense but it is obvious that many of the commenters in this thread stating that "timbre-matching" doesn't matter don't care much about home theater and/or have severely compromised systems.

Perhaps our systems are just not resolving enough.

 

[kyuu]

Perhaps our systems are just not resolving enough.

Nah, it's those hunks of lead on your head you call "ears" that are the problem.

 

[rynberg]

Perhaps our systems are just not resolving enough.

Is that some lame attempt at an audiophile joke? I'm not in that camp at all, but I don't think comments about timbre matching center channels from someone who has their center located behind their TV and aiming upwards add any value to the conversation.

I have plenty of compromises in my setup too, but have a lot of similarities with the OP.

EDIT: It's quite safe to say that home theater is an afterthought for most of the members here -- there's nothing at all wrong with such people, but they aren't exactly the most qualified to comment on this particular topic, is that fair to say?

 

[antcollinet]

Is that some lame attempt at an audiophile joke? I'm not in that camp at all, but I don't think comments about timbre matching center channels from someone who has their center located behind their TV and aiming upwards add any value to the conversation.

I have plenty of compromises in my setup too, but have a lot of similarities with the OP.

I dunno - it looked to me like you just came out with that exact audiophile cliche - just reworded.

 

[NTK]

If you choose only to use neutral loudspeakers, then by definition they are timbre matched. If not, then timbre mismatch will just be an additional compromise.

 

[rynberg]

I dunno - it looked to me like you just came out with that exact audiophile cliche - just reworded.

Perhaps you should slow your roll, I implied nothing of the sort and am the exact opposite of the audiophile cliche.

 

[rynberg]

If you choose only to use neutral loudspeakers, then by definition they are timbre matched. If not, then timbre mismatch will just be an additional compromise.

Neutral speakers do not sound the same...a KEF R3 does not sound at all like a Revel Performa3, even though both are neutral -- the soundstage width is dramatically different for one thing and you can't EQ that. I agree that the majority of us have to have several compromises, but it's not that difficult for OP to have a "matching" center (the much cheaper C208, which I recommended above).

 

[just1n]

After having identical LCR speakers I don’t think I can go back to mixing. I then got identical rears to have the bed layer the same.

Now if I do upgrade, they will all be coaxial at least if not all identical again.

 

[antcollinet]

Perhaps you should slow your roll, I implied nothing of the sort and am the exact opposite of the audiophile cliche.

No offense but it is obvious that many of the commenters in this thread stating that "timbre-matching" doesn't matter don't care much about home theater and/or have severely compromised systems.

(my bold)

Sorry if I misunderstood - but that is what the bolded text read like to me. "You can't hear the mismatch because your system isn't resolving enough" I'm reading it now and finding it difficult to come up with an alternative interpretation.


EDIT :

EDIT: It's quite safe to say that home theater is an afterthought for most of the members here -- there's nothing at all wrong with such people, but they aren't exactly the most qualified to comment on this particular topic, is that fair to say?

I don't think anyone going to the lengths of wiring 10 or more speakers into their room is doing that as an "afterthought". And doing so with unmatched speakers (or even upward firing centre speakers) - and finding it doesn't detract particularly from the experience *is* a qualification for stating that it is clearly not critical for all listeners.

It might be critical for you and that is fine. But frankly you are giving the impression, with the tone of your posts, of sneering down your nose at people who don't do it *your* correct way.

Hence my first reply. Whenever I see the words "no offence but..." I never believe they are actually meant.

 

[NTK]

Neutral speakers do not sound the same...a KEF R3 does not sound at all like a Revel Performa3, even though both are neutral -- the soundstage width is dramatically different for one thing and you can't EQ that. I agree that the majority of us have to have several compromises, but it's not that difficult for OP to have a "matching" center (the much cheaper C208, which I recommended above).

When you have a multi-channel system, the directivities of the different loudspeakers become a lot less important. The "soundstage" will now, if you have your system setup properly, overwhelmingly come from the spatial cues in the multichannel recording. The reflected sounds will be overpowered by the sounds from the multiple channels of loudspeakers surrounding you. That's why it is most revealing testing loudspeakers in mono.

You are there when have your direct sounds right.

 

[scotchrocks]

Great to know! Have you found the KEFs and Revels blend well enough for surround/height channels for your use case?

Yes, they seem to blend just fine in my setup, and I'm sure Dirac correction helps keep the frequency response matched relatively closely. I only use surround channels for home theater, and I haven't had any noticeable issues with surround effects. The Q4 also has enough bass extension to provide some limited support in Dirac ART as well. I'm sure M126Be or bigger speakers would be better, but for me, I don't think I'd notice significant differences in fidelity like with the LCR channels.

 

[Andysu]

thou only have five screen and nearly all most home cinemas around don't even use five screen , trinnov altitude 32 can do seven screen which i can't even fit two more JBL 4673A , i can see the vu dB level meters or hear where some some directional dialog pans in " gravity " 2013 goes a bit faint or i'm missing the smooth pan and have to switch off the ( Lsc left screen centre , Rsc right screen centre ) even with five screen smooth pans of dialog/effects/foley discrete music are localizable

i could do a special xlr connection blend and add another pair of JBL 2380A turn them around vertical so the discrete would pan though seven and the bass/mid will be blended into the Lc Rc though one of many DCX 2496 , its doable but i ain't downscale the cinema speakers to smaller ones even thou they are small they pack a punch in the THX cinema

 

[drodgers]

Also @drodgers how are you planning on using those q4 as heights? firing straight out?

Yeah, I'm planning on basically just firing straight down from the ceiling. I'll probably angle them a little so MLP is only around 15° off-axis, but they're still nice and wide.

 

[Oddball]

Is that….a bed?

Yep, that would be one of those. My personal preference to sofa and shared with my two girls. No wonder I am an Oddball . The point was Revel 426 that is in front of the bed. Not timbre matched perfectly, but it does keep up with towers in SPL and low distortion, which I would say is even more important. Timble matching is just icing on the cake.

 

[No_hair_left]

Yeah, I'm planning on basically just firing straight down from the ceiling. I'll probably angle them a little so MLP is only around 15° off-axis, but they're still nice and wide.

When I had mine and measured them it looked like the +/- 3db point was around 20 degrees either way, wish I could have found a way to make them work ceiling mounted, interested to see what you are able to do with them.

 

[Ktacos]

No offense but it is obvious that many of the commenters in this thread stating that "timbre-matching" doesn't matter don't care much about home theater and/or have severely compromised systems.

Sounds like you've got something to sell to us.

 

[drodgers]

It seems like there are two schools of thought:

• Neutral, well dispersed speakers are already timbre matched enough
• Exact timbre matching (within line or exact model) is distinctly audible (possibly due to dispersion, phase or some other characteristics)

I'm now really tempted to get the C426Be and try blind AB testing with another neutral speaker to see if I can tell them apart while panning.

If I can't find a good deal soon, I'll get the Genelec and wait for a used one to show up. I'd probably need to run dirac for them both on a miniDSP to have calibration profiles for each channel, and set up some kind of macro to toggle channels with a (blinded) single button press in the MiniDSP interface...

 

[Oddball]

It seems like there are two schools of thought:

• Neutral, well dispersed speakers are already timbre matched enough
• Exact timbre matching (within line or exact model) is distinctly audible (possibly due to dispersion, phase or some other characteristics)

I'm now really tempted to get the C426Be and try blind AB testing with another neutral speaker to see if I can tell them apart while panning.

If I can't find a good deal soon, I'll get the Genelec and wait for a used one to show up. I'd probably need to run dirac for them both on a miniDSP to have calibration profiles for each channel, and set up some kind of macro to toggle channels with a (blinded) single button press in the MiniDSP interface...

You should be able to get a great deal on C426. I got mine for EUR 2.8K which was 50% off the listed price with some extra shipping on the top. Black new unit came in pristine condition from Germany.

I think you would hear the difference in panning compared to other "lesser" center. I would not necessarily require "neutral" but rather competent and able to do some decent SPL. The reason I got my C426 was that previous Sonus Faber Sonetto II center was matching my smaller previous towers pretty well. When I upgraded to bigger towers (well just extended system from 7.4.4 to 9.4.4) it was clearly not able to keep up with them, especially on high SPL panning, so the deal on C426 was too good to pass. I was eying Revel 328s but eventually did not go there as found a great deal on the towers I really loved and auditioned twice before buying for much less.

 

[Ktacos]

I find it funny that the idea of timbre matching in HT seems to have come from a time when most people in the hobby didn't really have a good grasp on dispersion and room interactions, so the push for it was coming from people/companies who didn't really have all the info to even make an assessment about their speakers timbre. I mean how many of these people knew their tweeters were going super wide while their woofers were narrowing and the effect that has on the tonal balance.

It seems like there are two schools of thought:

• Neutral, well dispersed speakers are already timbre matched enough
• Exact timbre matching (within line or exact model) is distinctly audible (possibly due to dispersion, phase or some other characteristics)

I don't even think timbre matching within product lines is a thing with manufacturers. If you actually look at their product lines, you'll typically see speakers of various sizes with similar drivers and aesthetics, all with xover points that are different, this phase shifts will be in different places. Some are 3 ways with multiple phase shifts, some are two ways with just one. Some of the larger speakers will have different baffle interactions that can greatly alter tonal balance in room. There's just way too much different between speakers of the same product line to suggest manufacturers have ever cared about timbre matching.

So far I haven't really seen evidence to support timbre matching here, all we seem to have are user suggestions. There seems to be quite a bit of evidence though to show that it's mostly BS. Sometimes I feel this forum forgets it's name. This ain't audio anecdote review.