Center speaker advice: Is timbre matching real?

[drodgers]

I've got a new pair of Revel F228Be's, and I'm looking for a center to go with them, but I'm not sure how much I should value timbre matching.

The room is 6mx6m (~20ftx20ft) and relatively untreated (so far). I'm planning to use an AV20 with Dirac ART to help out. There will be subs to help with the low end (at least 2x SVS SB3000 to start with). The system will be used for a mix of HT and music. I'm planning to use KEF Q4 Metas for height and surround channels, since they're super easy to place, dig low, and have great concentric dispersion, and are relatively cheap. If there's another great on-wall option you'd recommend I'd be interested too.

Center options I'm considering:

- Revel C426Be would seem to be the obvious matching choice, but it's hard to get (and expensive ~A$9k RRP) here in Australia, and I'm not totally sold on it being better than a concentric option given how important smooth dispersion is for a center channel
- KEF R6 Meta is relatively cheap (~A$3.5k RRP), concentric, great dispersion, minimal MTM problems, highest pref. score in the ASR rankings. Sealed, so no SBIR, but also much worse low end.
- Genelec 8351B also concentric, middling price (~A$6.3k), great dispersion, super flat and clear. Maintains the option of eventually getting a second one for a future desktop setup if I decide I don't like it as a center, which isn't an option I have with either of the others (and could let me wait and hunt for a great deal on a used Revel if I end up wanting a match)

One more complication is that the center will be relatively close to the wall. I can definitely make a 5-10cm gap for the Genelec/Revel ports to work, but maybe sealed would just be better?

The KEF R6 seems like the on paper winner — and I've used an R2 before and liked it — but I'm a bit keen to try some of the other great brands and see if I prefer them, since my previous systems have pretty much all been KEF.

I'm interested in general advice and comparisons about these tradeoffs, but my one big theoretical questions is:

Is 'timbre matching' fronts and centers important?

If I'm going to EQ all of these neutrally tuned, wide dispersion speakers with Dirac anyway, how much does matching fronts and center really matter?

The only uneven off-axis response from the listed speakers is the classic 2kHz gap in vertical dispersion from the non-concentric Revels; is matching the floor/ceiling reflections from those the main contribution to timbre/tone that I'll notice?

Edit: corrected spelling of 'timbre'

 

[DVDdoug]

Is 'tambre matching' fronts and centers important?

In an ideal system they'd all be matched and full-range. In the real world there are often compromises. My center doesn't match and my rear pair are different from the front left & right. (I only have 5.1.)

I wouldn't recommend downgrading the left & right to match the center.

 

[Chrispy]

I doubt it will be an issue with any decent center, but the typical horizontal center already has issues otoh. If you install a center and have timbre issues, maybe.

 

[MattHooper]

Room Reflections & Human Adaptation for Small Room Acoustics

“All loudspeakers in a surround system need to be comparably good from a timbral perspective, and, if it is affordable, all the same.” - Floyd Toole

In any case, anecdotally, I sure found it important. I tried a whole bunch of different L/C/R combinations to see what I can get away with. But it was only when I got a full Hales Transcendence LCR set up, using their centre which was designed to timbre match the LR, that I got something like a seamless match of sound.

Since I owned two pairs of Hales T1 monitors, I actually tried using three Hales T1 monitors for LCR. It did sound quite seamless, but in the end, I actually preferred using the larger dedicated Hales center speaker.

Also, since I’m a nut about timbre I really wanted my surround speakers to match the timber of the Hales LCR. I ultimately found some monitor audio speakers had a very similar timber, and the matched proved really seamless. I’ve had some Home theatre installers say it’s about the most seamless surround “ bubble” of sound they’ve experienced in a customer’s home.

 

[Ktacos]

Timbre*

I don't believe it's a thing, well a marketing thing maybe. In this day and age most AVR's will have some EQ per channel so you should be achieving pretty neutral response with each speaker which aside from dispersion effects, is going to make most speakers kind of sound the same. Doesn't make sense to me either to expect the side speakers to sound the same as the center, the reflections will be different. Seems like a hold over from the past mostly to get you to stick within a manufacturers product range. I've mixed and matched various speakers in a HT surround setting and I didn't really run into a case where some speakers didn't work with others.

If you just buy neutral speakers with good DI, which is pretty much what you've listed, then any sort of idea of timbre matching kind of goes out the window.

 

[MattHooper]

I don't believe it's a thing, well a marketing thing maybe.

It’s definitely a thing!

Loudspeakers can vary so much in terms of colorations, resonances, dispersion patterns, etc. If you have timbral mismatches between speakers, especially LCR, you can hear the timber of sounds and voices change as they pan across the different speakers. I find it very offputting. And I’ve heard home theatre systems where the person really cared a lot about getting good quality LCR speakers but figured “ anything will do for the surrounds” and I could totally hear the mismatch and quality when the sound went to the surrounds. The people in question didn’t care about it, but I certainly noticed and I care about such things.

Of course, if you buy good neutral speakers with the relevant dispersion pattern… well that is timber matching and it will sound better and of course that’s part of the point.

 

[Chrispy]

It’s definitely a thing!

Loudspeakers can vary so much in terms of colorations, resonances, dispersion patterns, etc. If you have timbral mismatches between speakers, especially LCR, you can hear the timber of sounds and voices change as they pan across the different speakers. I find it very offputting. And I’ve heard home theatre systems where the person really cared a lot about getting good quality LCR speakers but figured “ anything will do for the surrounds” and I could totally hear the mismatch and quality when the sound went to the surrounds. The people in question didn’t care about it, but I certainly noticed and I care about such things.

Of course, if you buy good neutral speakers with the relevant dispersion pattern… well that is timber matching and it will sound better and of course that’s part of the point.

What sort of center speakers are you referring to?

 

[JSmith]

“All loudspeakers in a surround system need to be comparably good from a timbral perspective, and, if it is affordable, all the same.” - Floyd Toole

He's saying here though "all the same", as in all speakers in the surround system exactly the same type for all channels... not compromised centre speakers that happen to be from the same brand or series.


JSmith

 

[MattHooper]

What sort of center speakers are you referring to?

I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking.
If you mean, what centre speaker I’m using here are some images of the Hales Transcendence Center:

Is there an ongoing discussion of phantom centers?

Just get a full-range center speaker and enjoy the full-range signal in the center channel! If you've not had a capable center speaker, you may not realize how much deep bass(not LFE) is in the center channel, especially in action movies. After all, the center channel in movies is a discrete...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And in this thread, a photo of the Hales T1 monitors doing L/R in my surround system:

Most beautiful speakers in the world ?

Inspired by corrugated cardboard. If that is so then the Space Shuttle structure was too. ;)

www.audiosciencereview.com

If instead, you’re asking about what centre speakers I was referencing in other people’s systems, at the moment I can’t recall specifics as I’ve heard so many.

However, as I mentioned in my own experiments I tried a variety of speakers in LCR configurations, not always dedicated center channel designs, for instance mixing Audio Physic, Waveform, Spendor, Hales, MBL and others.

None of them were as seamless as the all Hales system.

One fun combination was my big Hales center channel with my MBL omnis in L/R.
The omnis did some amazing things for immersion and realism, but ultimately didn’t mesh seamlessly with the timbre/dispersion pattern of the traditional centre channel.

 

[Chrispy]

I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking.
If you mean, what centre speaker I’m using here are some images of the Hales Transcendence Center:

Is there an ongoing discussion of phantom centers?

Just get a full-range center speaker and enjoy the full-range signal in the center channel! If you've not had a capable center speaker, you may not realize how much deep bass(not LFE) is in the center channel, especially in action movies. After all, the center channel in movies is a discrete...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And in this thread, a photo of the Hales T1 monitors doing L/R in my surround system:

Most beautiful speakers in the world ?

Inspired by corrugated cardboard. If that is so then the Space Shuttle structure was too. ;)

www.audiosciencereview.com

If instead, you’re asking about what centre speakers I was referencing in other people’s systems, at the moment I can’t recall specifics as I’ve heard so many.

However, as I mentioned in my own experiments I tried a variety of speakers in LCR configurations, not always dedicated center channel designs, for instance mixing Audio Physic, Waveform, Spendor, Hales, MBL and others.

None of them were as seamless as the all Hales system.

One fun combination was my big Hales center channel with my MBL omnis in L/R.
The omnis did some amazing things for immersion and realism, but ultimately didn’t mesh seamlessly with the timbre/dispersion pattern of the traditional centre channel.

Was more referring to whether an identical speaker to L/R as would be ideal. Horizontal centers are inherently compromised. Just wondering your take on such....

 

[Martin]

Would a M126Be work?

Martin

 

[MattHooper]

Was more referring to whether an identical speaker to L/R as would be ideal. Horizontal centers are inherently compromised. Just wondering your take on such....

Ah!

I was only able to do that experiment with the Hales T1 monitors - because I ultimately decided I wanted to use them as my LR, and I found two pairs, so I was able to try a set up with the same T1 speakers doing L/C/R (all vertically oriented).

As I mentioned, the sound was quite seamless in terms of timbre. So it “worked” in that respect.

But once I tried the big T-center channel there is no going back. For one thing being a much bigger speaker with more drivers it added more bass depth and scale - to the degree that I did not feel the need for a subwoofer (which is good because I generally didn’t want to have to find a place for a subwoofer in my system). It also to my ears had slightly better nuance in terms of sound quality. Yet it was still seamless enough with the LR speakers. So I think overall things sounded better with that dedicated centre channel then with three of the same Hales monitors.

Now…. If we start talking about systems like Kal Rubinson who I believe has KEF Blades doing LCR duty, that’s a whole new ball game and I bet that sounds seamless and awesome.

 

[robh36062]

In a word Yes. They don't have to be identical. You want LCR pans to be as be seamless with no obvious changes going from speaker to speaker. Now if you can accomplish this using EQ fine but the less EQ the better.

Rob

 

[olds1959special]

They don’t have to match. A center speaker is going to emphasize vocals and dialogue. Having a smaller speaker that has less bass may not be a bad thing, and when full size L/R speakers are used more of the stereo image is retained. I am using a stereo source. The center speaker plays mono. I have a center subwoofer though, and calibrate it together with my center speakers. I use two center speakers. A horizontal one on top of the desk and a smaller speaker on top of the subwoofer. Because the speaker underneath the desk is occluded, I boost the treble trim and decrease the bass all the way. I also boost the treble and decrease the bass of the horizontal center. I use 100 Hz 12 dB slope inline HP filters on both. When I calibrate I aim for a balanced response and then my center channel plays clear vocals/dialogue and complements the L/R well.

 

[scotchrocks]

I have a very similar system setup (AV20, Revel F228Be with C426Be, KEF Q4 surrounds and Q8 height speakers, Dirac ART, SVS subs), and the C426Be has been excellent but it's definitely expensive. I run the C426Be very close to the wall with ports plugged, and it hasn't been an issue in my setup with Dirac.

I also have Genelec 8351As (not B's) and while they are very good, it might be annoying to have to run a separate power connection for them, and I think they may not have quite as much SPL capability as the C426Be/F228Be, so it might struggle to keep up in certain situations. I haven't heard the R6 but it measures well and probably sounds very good. Dirac can probably do a lot to help it match with the F228Be, but I'd worry about differences in LCR especially in the treble range being noticeable. Another thing is if the visual differences would be distracting; the Genelec and KEF are very different in design, and just by seeing a different style of center channel might make you 'hear' a difference.

Anyway, I think if budget is a concern, I'd probably still choose the C426Be but reduce or delay spending on the AVP/AVR and the surround/height speakers. The Marantz AV30 should be coming out soon, and there are of course other very capable D+M receivers if you don't need XLR outs. I just think the center channel is so important that it's probably not worth compromising on if you've already invested in (and are happy with) the LR channels.

 

[Laserjock]

@drodgers how far away do you sit from the front stage and how far apart are the L/R?

I have the F208 and although I bought the C208, it doesn’t fit with the 100” display.
I use an ELAC Uni-Fi 2.0 UC52 and dont notice a timbre mismatch.

 

[kyuu]

I'll just throw in that you don't need a concentric driver for a good center. 3-ways, like the C426be, solve the (often overblown) horizontal dispersion issue inherent to a toppled MTM that is often used for center duty.

As for timbre matching, as you have seen opinions are mixed. Ultimately, if you can't or don't want to get the "matching" center channel for your Revels, your best bet would be to get the center from an outfit with a good return policy and give it a whirl. Play some content that pans through the front three channels and see if you notice a distracting tonal shift. If you don't, there's no problem. If you do, return it.

Edit: Also to respond to this:

Sealed, so no SBIR

That's an incorrect understanding of SBIR. Sealed vs. ported is irrelevant to SBIR. The only way to avoid it (for the wall that would be directly behind the speaker, which is the most significant source of SBIR) is to put the speaker in the wall so the baffle is flush with the wall (i.e. infinite baffle).

 

[KSTR]

Is 'timbre matching' fronts and centers important?

No.

What you really want to have is matched phase response (this is true for all multichannel systems, starting with two channels). If not, then you can run into parts of the frequency response being out of phase, creating weird (and wrong) soundstage effects. This of course depends on how the content is mixed but the moment more than one single speaker is playing a certain signal (voice, instrument) phases must match.

 

[drodgers]

Would a M126Be work?

Probably a bit too tall to go under the TV, but if I see a good single second hand one going, I might make a custom cabinet for it.

 

[drodgers]

I have a very similar system setup (AV20, Revel F228Be with C426Be, KEF Q4 surrounds and Q8 height speakers, Dirac ART, SVS subs), and the C426Be has been excellent but it's definitely expensive. I run the C426Be very close to the wall with ports plugged, and it hasn't been an issue in my setup with Dirac.

Great to know! Have you found the KEFs and Revels blend well enough for surround/height channels for your use case?

The Marantz AV30 should be coming out soon

Yeah, I'm planning to see if I can negotiate a good deal on an AV20 over the Black Friday period, and wait for AV30 if not. I'll also try my luck negotiating for a more reasonable C426Be and see how I go...